BB.MSG[MSG,LES] - www.SailDart.org

PDheader:1986-01-17 00:39:00-08:00 c5d5f5166ed66d99f002134bc18d584a ∂17-Jan-86 0039 LES Planning for Bicycles To: su-bboards@SU-AI.ARPA

Judy Anderson's suggestion that coin-operated bike lockers be provided is an interesting one. Reliable coin acceptors are fairly expensive, so this would run up the cost a bit, but I believe that it would be useful to have some lockers of this type on campus in addition to long-term rental units. I received quite a few private communications in support of my harangue on "Crossing the New West Campus." Some offered additional interesting information or suggestions, as follows. INFLUENCING POLICYMAKERS. One person said, in effect, that my essay was too long to be read by anyone senior enough to act on it. Indeed, one senior administrator who was sent a copy (not by me) was heard to complain loudly about having to get through such an enormous message -- it seems that he had not yet mastered the art of deleting a message without reading it. Poor fellow. BICYCLE ACTIVISM IS NOT NEW. I learned of the successful exploits of an earlier cycling advocate. It seems that a series of bike ramps was built between Jordan Quad and the Main Quad in the early '60s only after certain administrators were bludgeoned (in writing) by George Forsythe, who was both an avid cyclist and principal founder of the Computer Science Department. (Forsythe Hall is named in his honor.) CHEAPER PARKING. One person felt that since bicycle commuters may have to come to work by car occasionally (e.g. when making a trip somewhere) they should qualify for a limited parking option that is less expensive than buying a regular parking sticker. That would seem fair, but hard to administer. Of course, pay lots provide this function, though they are rather expensive if you use them much. My favorite gambit is to throw my bike in the trunk of my car (dangling out), drive to the nearest free parking area on campus, then ride the rest of the way. FATSOS NEED TO BE HELD TOO. Another person grumbled that the slots in some metal bike racks on campus are too narrow to take the fat tires on his mountain bike. This points up the need for careful qualification procedures in the selection of bike racks for campus use. COPY OTHER CAMPUS CYCLING CAPERS. A good suggestion was made that we review the ways in which other college campuses with large bicycle populations are coping with their problems. GO PUBLIC. Another suggestion was made that we try to get something published on the bicycle planning issue in Campus Report. Not a bad idea. FREE BIKES. Still another suggestion was that the university buy a lot of cheap bikes and leave them around campus for whoever wants to use them. I pointed out that this communal bike idea was tried earlier and found impractical. The "white bike" movement that originated, as I recall, in Amsterdam in the late '60s was taken up here shortly thereafter by the Midpeninsula Free University (a predominently hippy organization of that era, centered on Stanford). Scores of bikes were acquired and painted white to signify that they were "free." Like most Free U. members, I donated to this project. The white bike movement fell apart because, without personal ownership, the bikes were treated badly, broke down quickly and nobody felt responsible for repairing them. Some of them undoubtedly "leaked" to surrounding areas that had no free bike program. Their population dwindled and vanished in less than a year. Even though this experiment was undertaken on a grander scale in Amsterdam and was tried in a number of other places in the U.S., the same thing seems to have happened everywhere. This can be cited as further evidence that communism doesn't work. Cheers, Les jmc - There is an interesting nearby exception to the principle that communism in bikes doesn't work. The Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory has free bikes. It is made to work in the usual way communism is made to work. Namely, there is a fence and 24 hour guards at the gates that, among their other duties, make sure the bikes don't emigrate. [JMC - Forwarded to OTHER-SU-BBOARDS from line 659] SAIL IDs How intolerant are the young! In an earlier time, Sail's 3-letter user identifiers were a breakthrough in the humanization of computers. The original operating system that was received from DEC (vintage 1966) permitted users to be identified only by numbers. Fortunately it proved rather easy to modify the code to accept up to 3 letters. Concurrently, system hackers at Carnegie Mellon University fiddled their version of the system in a slightly different manner and had their users log in with such mnemonic IDs as "2379MX42." For some reason that awfulness persisted for many years. The 3-letter IDs are easy to type and came to be used as "handles" in much the same way as the colorful titles adopted later by denizens of citizens band radio. Naturally, people concocted pronunciations for many of them. For example, "MRC" is pronounced "murk." A lady who had started using her initials (PAW) changed because she didn't like the sound of it. Still others have found it expedient to adopt pseudonyms. For example, a well-known computer scientist who got tired of receiving dumb messages arranged to have eveything addressed to his public ID go to his secretary, while he uses a secret ID. Admittedly, there are times when you really want to know "Who is that?" Such information was not available in early timesharing systems. To fill this need, about 15 years ago I invented a program called FINGER which has since migrated to quite a few different operating systems. While it helps to further humanize the computer by giving "real" names and places, it unfortunately can also be used to snoop in various ways. This fact bothers me, but that it another story. LES and Les

PDheader:1986-01-31 00:08:00-08:00 68d6c0a252c272e03723af1bcd204f27 ∂31-Jan-86 0008 LES Finger Follies and the Value of Anonymity To: su-bboards@SU-AI.ARPA

A couple of people have asked me to explain my BBoard remark last week on the use of FINGER for snooping. This issue has been discussed earlier on Arpanet (most recently in Human-Nets last June) but is by no means resolved. The following remarks are an updated version of what I said in that forum. I believe that it should be possible to use computers with about the same degree of privacy as telephone systems. Records must be kept of who used what services for the purpose of billing, but users should be able to control the information that is disclosed about them to the general public. FINGER and other computer utility programs are being used abusively for snooping. As global networking grows, it becomes increasingly important that this issue be dealt with. I have a specific proposal, discussed below. First I will review how we got here. I created FINGER in the early '70s to fill some local needs in the Stanford Artificial Intelligence Lab. People generally worked long hours there, often with unpredictable schedules. When you wanted to meet with some group, it was important to know who was around and when the others would likely reappear. It also was useful to be able to locate potential volleyball players when you wanted to play, Chinese food fanatics when you wanted to eat and antisocial computer users when it appeared that something strange was happening to the system. The only tool then available for seeing who was around was a WHO program that showed IDs and terminal line numbers for people who were logged in. There was no information available on people who were not logged in. I frequently saw people running their fingers down the WHO display saying things like "There's Don and that's Pattie but I don't know when Tom was last seen." or "Who in hell is VVK and where does line 63 go?" I wrote FINGER and developed the supporting database to provide this information in traditional human terms -- real names and places. Because I preferred to talk face to face rather than through the computer or telephone, I put in the feature that tells how long a terminal had been idle, to help assess the likelihood that a given user would be found at his terminal if I walked down the hall. The program was an instant hit. Some people asked for the Plan file feature so that they could explain their absence or tell how they could be reached at odd times, so I added it. It is interesting to note that this feature has evolved into a forum for social commentary and amusing observations. After a number of other groups copied FINGER, the idea arose to provide a network FINGER service. I don't remember who suggested that but it seemed like a good idea at the time so we did it. Some other anxious people wanted to be able to verify that their mail was delivered to specific addressees, so the Mail feature was added by somebody. Some privacy issues surfaced at the beginning. For example, some people said that they didn't want just anyone to be told when they last logged out. These people were not very persistent in their complaints, however. I suspect that many of them discovered that it is often advantageous to let others know about your phase. In any case, this issue seemed to die and I didn't do anything about it. I think perhaps I should have. Another local privacy issue that arose had to do with "screen mapping." SAIL terminals use television monitors that can be connected to various computer-generated graphics channels as well as local television cameras and commercial television stations, complete with sound. The channel mapping feature is sometimes used to share information or in seeking consultation ("Hey, map to my screen and tell me what went wrong"). It also can be used to snoop on what other people are doing. In order to deal with the privacy issue we included a system feature that inhibits mapping to channels that are "hidden." For convenience, we also poked a small hole through this security barrier by having a "magic mapping" command that surmounts it. The idea was that you should be able to violate security when you need to but you should know that you are doing it. As a check on this process, the local FINGER program labels anyone who is magic-mapped to a channel as a "SPY * SPY * SPY." I received a request that FINGER identify which channels are hidden. It appeared to me that there were several socially undesirable ways in which this information could be used and that it had no legitimate purpose, so I refused to add it. Nevertheless, while I was away from Stanford someone else added it to FINGER on the grounds that "the information is available in the system so we might as well show it." This is a philosophy that I strongly disagree with -- the idea that people should be assisted in accessing any information that they want from the system, even if its only plausible use is for snooping. Now we see increasing use of long distance snooping over networks. I will confess that I sometimes do it myself. For example, if I am engaged in a flamefest in a computer discussion group, I sometimes check on a prospective victim until he appears to have logged out and gone to bed. I then launch an attack that he won't be able to counter until he wakes up and logs in the next day. (Yes, I too am impure.) I guess that I shouldn't give away too many trade secrets here. Let me simply assert that there are lots of ways of abusing the information services that computers provide and that we should give more consideration to privacy protection. In the case of FINGER and related programs I believe that we should provide optional "anonymity" for those who want it. By "anonymity" I mean that a person running in this mode would be listed as "anonymous" in FINGER and other similar queries. If such a person were FINGERed individually, it would acknowledge that he exists but would not tell whether or not he is logged in and all specific information about him would be shown as "unknown." Of course, given the permeability of most operating systems it is currently impossible to defend against a determined, snooping wizard. It does not follow, however, that we should assist all busybodies in snooping on people who value their privacy. A possibly useful variant of the anonymity scheme would be to permit an individual to be "anonymous" to all network inquiries but identified for local inquiries. More generally, he might be given the option of providing a list of people who can be given information about him. I strongly advocate providing anonymity for those who want it. I believe that having substantial privacy in ones computer work should be regarded as a natural right just as it is in most other human endeavors. So far, I have not been very successful in convincing systems people that they should make their information programs reflect this policy. Neither have I given up. Les Earnest

PDheader:1986-02-03 17:20:00-08:00 8107c44443f6f147e86604a711547e7b ∂03-Feb-86 1720 MSK@SU-SUSHI.ARPA Re: Finger Follies and the Value of Anonymity Received: from SU-SUSHI.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 3 Feb 86 17:20:21 PST Date: Mon 3 Feb 86 17:06:30-PST From: Michael S. Kenniston <MSK@SU-SUSHI.ARPA> Subject: Re: Finger Follies and the Value of Anonymity To: LES@SU-AI.ARPA cc: msk@SU-SUSHI.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SU-AI.ARPA>" of Fri 31 Jan 86 00:08:00-PST Message-ID: <12180533066.42.MSK@SU-SUSHI.ARPA>

Hear, hear! I agree with just about everything you said; protecting the privacy of computer users IS important, and different users will be sensitive to different aspects. I, for instance, don't give a hoot who knows when/if I'm logged in, but would be outraged if anyone snooped on my screen while I was reading or sending mail. -------

PDheader:1986-02-05 23:43:00-08:00 206b3e30d78bd1c6111fa4f961150e78 ∂05-Feb-86 2343 LES Finger flex To: msk@SU-SUSHI.ARPA My BBoard note on FINGER snooping seems to have had a small effect:

FINGER on Sail shortly will have the feature removed that shows who has hidden their channels. On the other hand, there seems to be little interest in the anonymity scheme, at least in this environment. I suspect that a lot of people get a sense of community out of seeing who is around on the various machines. e-t-a-o-i-n Spy and the F.B.I. I regret to report that the old book on cryptography called "Secret and Urgent" that John McCarthy mentions as a source of letter frequencies was responsible for my getting an F.B.I. record at the age of 12. This bizarre incident caused a problem much later when I needed a security clearance. I learned that I could obtain one only by concealing my sordid past. A boyhood friend named Bob and I had read the book, then devised a rather elegant cryptographic scheme based on the principles it described. I don't remember exactly why we thought we needed to communicate cryptographically. We spent most of our time outside of school together, so there were ample opportunities to talk. We made two copies of the crypto key, each took one and carried them on our persons at all times except when taking showers. I had recently been given glasses to wear but generally kept them in my pocket in a hard case that also served as an excellent hiding place for the key. Unfortunately, while riding a bus home from the beach one Saturday, the case slipped out of my pocket unnoticed. I reported the loss to my mother that night. She chastised me and later called the bus company. They said that the glasses hadn't been turned in. Unknown to us, the case had been found by a patriotic citizen who opened it, examined the crypto key, recognized that it must belong to a Japanese spy and turned it over to the F.B.I. This was in San Diego in 1943, when citizens of Japanese descent were being forced off their property and taken away. I remember hearing that a local grocer was secretly a Colonel in the Japanese Army and had hidden his uniform in the back of his store. A lot of people actually believed these things. My mother didn't rush getting replacement glasses in view of the fact that I hadn't worn them much and they cost about $12, a large sum at that time. About six weeks later when I happened to be off on another escapade, my mother was visited by a man who identified himself as an investigator from the F.B.I. (She happened to be at home working on her Ph.D. dissertation.) She noticed that there were two more men waiting in a car outside. The agent proceeded to ask a number of questions about me, including my occupation. She remembers that he seemed quite disappointed when he learned that I was only 12 years old. He eventually revealed why I was being investigated, showed her the glasses and the crypto key and asked her if she knew where it came from. She didn't, of course. She asked if we could get the glasses back and he agreed. My mother told the investigator how glad she was to get them back, considering that they cost $12. He did a slow burn, then said "Lady, this case has cost the government thousands of dollars. It has been the top priority in our office for the last six weeks. We traced the glasses to your son from the prescription by examining the files of nearly all optomitrists in San Diego." It apparently didn't occur to them that if I were a REAL Japanese spy, I might have brought the glasses with me from headquarters. The F.B.I. agent gave back the glasses but kept the crypto key "for our records." They apparently were not totally convinced that they were dealing just with kids. Since our communication scheme had been compromised, Bob and I devised a new key. I started carrying it in my wallet, which I thought was more secure. I don't remember ever exchanging any cryptographic messages. I was always ready, though. A few years later when I was in college, I got a summer job in a Naval research lab that required a security clearance. One of the questions on the application form was "Have you ever been investigated by the F.B.I." Naturally, I checked "Yes." The next question was, "If so, describe the circumstances." There wasn't much room on the form, so I answered simply and honestly, "I was suspected of being a Japanese spy." When I handed the form in to the security officer, he scanned it quickly, looked me over slowly, then said, "Explain this" -- pointing at the F.B.I. question. I described what had happened. He got very agitated, picked up my form, tore it in two, and threw it in the waste basket. He then got out a blank form and handed it to me, saying "Here, fill it out again and don't mention that. If you do, I'll make sure that you NEVER get a security clearance." I did as he directed and was shortly granted the clearance. I have never disclosed that incident again on security clearance forms. On another occasion much later, I learned by chance that putting certain provocative information on a security clearance form can greatly speed up the clearance process. But that is another story.

PDheader:1986-03-06 00:34:00-08:00 39aef56e90f17d1ab171c32627d83f15 ∂06-Mar-86 0034 LES Sexism To: su-bboards@SU-AI.ARPA

Matt Ginsberg's friend who called himself a "Chairperson" was clearly a sexist. The neutral form is "Chairperchild." Les Earnest

PDheader:1986-03-06 11:29:00-08:00 2ab240ef653bf685a85c9c7dbbfa1a59 ∂06-Mar-86 1129 SIEGMAN@SU-SIERRA.ARPA Re: e-t-a-o-i-n Spy and the F.B.I. Received: from SU-SIERRA.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 6 Mar 86 11:29:09 PST Date: Thu 6 Mar 86 11:27:21-PST From: Tony Siegman <SIEGMAN@SU-SIERRA.ARPA> Subject: Re: e-t-a-o-i-n Spy and the F.B.I. To: LES@SU-AI.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SU-AI.ARPA>" of Thu 6 Mar 86 03:27:00-PST

Hey, you've GOT to tell the other also!!! -------

PDheader:1986-03-06 12:34:00-08:00 ab64fbd411abe053f1853701661f67ab ∂06-Mar-86 1234 TA235.TEAM1@SU-SIERRA.ARPA Re: Sexism Received: from SU-SIERRA.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 6 Mar 86 12:34:46 PST Date: Thu 6 Mar 86 12:31:23-PST From: Team 1: Systems <ta235.team1@SU-SIERRA.ARPA> Subject: Re: Sexism To: LES@SU-AI.ARPA, su-bboard@SU-SIERRA.ARPA cc: ta235.team1@SU-SIERRA.ARPA, b.beeblebrox%LOTS-C@SU-SIERRA.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SU-AI.ARPA>" of Thu 6 Mar 86 00:34:00-PST

all sons are not children. how about 'Chairperdescendant?' -------

PDheader:1986-03-06 12:43:00-08:00 e65529ac2964726485759ca311482bad ∂06-Mar-86 1243 LES re: Sexism To: ta235.team1@SU-SIERRA.ARPA [In reply to message sent Thu 6 Mar 86 12:31:23-PST.]

Not bad. Of course, your assertion that "all sons are not children" is obviously false. I assume that you meant "Not all sons are children."

PDheader:1986-03-06 16:34:00-08:00 dec9834ed79c40659591bbd6846576a1 ∂06-Mar-86 1634 LES More Words, Fewer Monarchs To: Treitel@SU-SUSHI.ARPA, su-bboards@SU-AI.ARPA

Yes, I believe that George, Elizabeth and Charles have all been equally good at their jobs, which serve no useful purpose. If British monarchs ever wish to try a new gig they can easily migrate to the U.S., many of whose citizens seem to feel the need of royalty and already recognize them as U.S. monarchs. Read any popular magazine for confirmation.

PDheader:1986-03-07 01:47:00-08:00 f130fdae19d3e86386aed7f9644fa534 ∂07-Mar-86 0147 interran@su-shasta.arpa loved F.B.I. spy story in su.bboard Received: from SU-SHASTA.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 7 Mar 86 01:47:00 PST Received: by su-shasta.arpa with TCP; Fri, 7 Mar 86 01:47:08 pst Date: Fri, 7 Mar 86 01:47:08 pst From: John Interrante <interran@su-shasta.arpa> Subject: loved F.B.I. spy story in su.bboard To: les@su-ai

Please do tell us about how some provocative information on your security form can greatly speed up your clearance... John

PDheader:1986-03-07 08:45:00-08:00 c98676373511da9424e02d32632ff47d ∂07-Mar-86 0845 TALEEN@SU-SCORE.ARPA cryptographic messages Received: from SU-SCORE.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 7 Mar 86 08:44:56 PST Date: Fri 7 Mar 86 08:42:56-PST From: Taleen Marashian <TALEEN@SU-SCORE.ARPA> Subject: cryptographic messages To: su-bboards@SU-SCORE.ARPA Message-ID: <12188830003.18.TALEEN@SU-SCORE.ARPA>

At the risk of appearing ignorant being the cause of many shocked reactions, I will ask the following question: What are cryptographic messages, and what is a crypto key? (well, TWO questions) P.S. I loved the story. I think it would be a great story for cocktail parties, family dinner discussions (hey kids, did I ever tell you the one about my spying days as a pre-teen? ...Heh, and you think YOU'RE adventurous...). Taleen -------

PDheader:1986-03-07 16:08:00-08:00 eb01fa307db279e66032d14742bd23b6 ∂07-Mar-86 1608 LES re: cryptographic messages To: TALEEN@SU-SCORE.ARPA CC: su-bboards@SU-AI.ARPA [In reply to message sent Fri 7 Mar 86 08:42:56-PST.]

Sorry about being unclear. A "cryptographic message" is a message (text in this case) that has been transformed in some systematic way so as to render it unreadable but capable of being transformed back into its original form if you know the inverse transformation. A simple example is a cipher, in which letters are substituted systematically, such as replacing "a" with "z," "b" with "y," etc. Of course, ciphers are not very secure in that it is usually fairly easy to figure out the inverse transformation if you have a large enough message sample. A "crypto key" (more accurately, a "cryptographic key") is a concise description of the encrypting transformation or inverse transformation. In the incidents described earlier, it was a typewritten sheet of paper. Of course, people who openly exchange coded messages tend to draw attention to themselves. I recall an incident in the late 1960s when there was a chess match between a computer program here at Stanford developed by people working for John McCarthy and a program developed in the Soviet Union. Moves were exchanged by Telex using international chess notation, which looks rather cryptic. No sooner had the match gotten started than the Soviet participants found themselves being investigated by the KGB. Fortunately they had obtained advance permission from the appropriate agency and could explain each of their messages to the subversive folks at Stanford. Les Earnest Kick the Mongrel Date: Fri, 7 Mar 86 13:18:10 CST From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA> To: human-nets@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: Prices and propriety I've noticed a disturbing trend lately, on both ARPANET mailing lists and digests, and on the USENET newsgroups: people (or moderators) withhold prices from product descriptions or from informational messages, seemingly in the mistaken belief that including price data is somehow "advertising" and therefore either improper use of ARPA or USENET resources. This is *not* true. I speak as one who has been active in the mailing list and Digest traffic since 1976, a systems administrator at an Army computer site, and a participant in USENET via the courtesy of another Army site. I've even seen this kind of "fear" or reticence to give prices on completely non-official USENET groups, like in net.auto, where a person transcribing a piece of advertising literature on an automotive product included all the data except the price, putting in instead a statement that he was deliberately omitting this. This sort of thing makes a mockery of giving information via the net -- price is often one of the most important specifications on any sort of hardware or software! Let me offer a few realistic guidelines about "proper" or "improper" network postings: If you are putting out some product info for altruistic reasons, for the good of others or to warn them away from trouble, and have no personal interest in the success or failure of the vendor that offers that product, you can post *anything*. That includes prices, specs, sources of supply, evaluations, rumors, what-have-you. (You should label facts vs. speculation, of course, but don't withhold info that could help others.) If you are involved with the product, as an employee of the vendor, or a designer and sole proprietor, or otherwise someone "behind" the item, you have to word what you post as information, not as an ad. In this case, you can post facts but not puffery. (If you are an employee with inside knowledge about defects or hidden flaws, and wish to post disparaging or damaging but true info, this is to our advantage, and you are encouraged to do so, realizing, of course, that you are likely to not be an employee any longer. :-) Your affiliation should be given, so readers will know that the info is not coming from a disinterested source. If you are a competitor, and are responding to a posting of a competing organization, or to an independent party's posting about some product, again your involvement should be clearly stated, so readers can know your interest in the outcome or effect of such discussion. I think most people already adhere to these principles, and so this is nothing new. Perhaps it will help to have them explicitly mentioned. Note that nothing in the above prohibits mentioning prices. They are merely other specifications, just as important as speed, size, or the like, and more important than many other specs. In actual procurements, they are often only the starting points for negotiations, in any case. Will Martin USArmy Materiel Command Automated Logistics Mgmt Systems Activity

PDheader:1986-03-11 01:17:00-08:00 7835c2537b09dfbf7f57cce8b27b773d ∂11-Mar-86 0117 LES Kick the Mongrel To: su-bboards@SU-AI.ARPA

In a previous account I told how reading a book on cryptography led to my getting an F.B.I. record at the age of 12 and about subsequent awkwardness in obtaining a security clearance. By request I will now describe how I learned that putting provocative information on a security clearance form can accelerate the clearance process. First let me describe the environment that gave rise to this gambit. White Faces in New Places In 1963, after living in Lexington, Massachusetts for 7 years, I moved to the Washington D.C. area to help set up a new office for Mitre Corporation. After three days of searching, my wife and I bought a house then under construction in a pleasant suburb near Fairfax, Virginia. I hadn't noticed it during our search, but it soon became evident that there were nothing but white faces in this area. In fact, there were nothing but white faces for miles around. We expected to find some cultural differences and did. For example, people drove much less aggressively than in Boston. The first time that I did a Boston-style fake-out at a traffic circle, the other cars yielded! This took all the fun out of it and I was embarassed into driving more conservatively. When I applied for a Virginia driver's license, I noticed that the second question on the application, just after "Name," was "Race." When filling out forms, I have always made it a practice to omit information that I think is irrelevant. It seemed to me that my race had nothing to do with driving a car, so I left it blank. When I handed the application to the clerk along with the fee, he just looked at me, marked "W" in the blank field and threw it on a stack. I guess that he had learned that this was the easiest way to deal with outlanders. Our contractor was a bit slow in finishing the house. We knew that there was mail headed our way that was probably accumulating in the post office, so we put up the mailbox even before the house was finished. The first day we got just two letters -- from the American Civil Liberties Union and Martin Luther King's organization. We figured that this was the Post Office staff's way of letting us know that they were on to us. Sure enough, the next day we got the rest of our accumulated mail, a large stack. It shortly became apparent that on all forms in Virginia, the second question was "Race." Someone informed me that as far as the Commonwealth of Virginia was concerned, there were just two races: "white" and "colored." When our kids brought forms home from school, I started putting a "C" after the second question, leaving it to the authorities to figure out whether that meant "Colored" or "Caucasian." Racing Clearance About this time, my boss and I and another colleague applied for a special security clearance that we needed. There are certain clearances that can't be named in public -- it was one of those. I had held an ordinary Top Secret clearance for a number of years and had held the un-namable clearance a short time before, so I did not anticipate any problems. When I filled out the security form, I noticed that question #5 was "Race." In the past I had not paid attention to this question; I had always thoughtlessly written "Caucasian." Having been sensitized by my new environment, I re-examined the question. All of my known forebears came from Europe, mostly from Southern Germany with a few from England, Ireland, and Scotland. A glance in the mirror, however, indicated that there was Middle Eastern blood in my veins. I have a semitic nose and skin that tans so easily that I am often darker than many people who pass for black. Did I inherit this from a Hebrew, an Arab, a Gypsy or perhaps one of the Turks who periodically pillaged Central Europe? Maybe it was from a Blackfoot Indian that an imaginative aunt thinks was in our family tree. I will probably never know. As an arrogant young computer scientist, I believed that if there is any decision that you can't figure out how to program, the question is wrong. I couldn't figure out how to program racial classification, so I concluded that there isn't such a thing. I subsequently reviewed some scientific literature that confirmed this belief. "Race" is, at best, a fuzzy concept about typical physical properties of certain populations. At worst, of course, it is used to justify more contemptible behavior than any concept other than religion. In answer to the race question on the security form, I decided to put "mongrel." This seemed like an appropriate answer to a meaningless question. Shortly after I handed in the form, I received a call from a secretary in the security office of the Defense Communications Agency. She said that she had noticed a typographical error in the fifth question where it said "mongrel." She asked if I didn't mean "Mongol." "No thanks," I said, "I really meant `mongrel.'" She ended the conversation rather quickly. A few hours later I received a call from the chief security officer of D.C.A., who I happened to know. "Hey, Les," he said in a friendly way, "I'd like to talk to you the next time you're over here." I agreed to meet him the following week. When I got there, he tried to talk me out of answering the race question "incorrectly." I asked him what he thought was the right answer. "You know, Caucasian," he replied. "Oh, you mean someone from the Caucusus Mountains of the U.S.S.R.?" I asked pointedly. "No, you know, `white.'" "Actually, I don't know," I said. We got into a lengthy discussion in which he informed me that as far as the Defense Department was concerned there were just five races: Caucasian, Negro, Oriental, American Indian, and something else that I don't remember. I asked him how he would classify someone who was, by his definition, 7/8 Caucasian and 1/8 Negro. He said he wasn't sure. I asked how he classified Egyptians and Ethiopians. He wasn't sure. I said that I wasn't sure either and that "mongrel" seemed like the best answer for me. He finally agreed to forward my form to the security authorities but warned that I was asking for trouble. A Question of Stability I knew what to expect from a security background investigation: neighbors and former acquaintances let you know it is going on by asking "What are they trying to get you for?" and kidding you about what they told the investigators. Within a week after my application for the new clearance was submitted, it became apparent that the investigation was already underway and that the agents were hammering everyone they talked to about my "mental stability." The Personnel Manager where I worked was interviewed quite early and came The personnel manager where I worked was interviewed quite early and came to me saying "My God! They think you're crazy! What did you do, rape a polo pony?" He also remarked that they had asked him if he knew me socially and that he had answered "Yes, we just celebrated Guy Fawkes Day together." When the investigator wanted to know "What is Guy Fawkes Day?" he started to explain the gunpowder plot but thought better of it. He settled for the explanation that "It's a British holiday." An artist friend named Linda, who lived two houses away from us, said that she had no trouble answering the investigator's questions about my stability. She said that she recalled our party the week before when we had formed two teams to "Walk the plank." In this game, participants take turns walking the length of a 2 x 4 set on edge and drinking a small amount of beer. Anyone who steps off is eliminated and the team with the most total crossings after some number of rounds wins. Linda said that she remembered I was the most stable drinker there. I was glad that she had not remembered my instability at an earlier party of hers when I had fallen off a skateboard, broken my watch and bruised my ribs. The embarassing thing was that I had run over the bottom of my own toga! The investigation continued full tilt everywhere I had lived. After about three months it stopped and a month later I was suddenly informed that the clearance had been granted. The other two people whose investigations were begun at the same time did not receive their clearances until another five months later. In comparing notes, it appeared that the investigators did the background checks on my colleagues in a much more leisurely manner. We concluded that my application had received priority treatment. The investigators had done their best to pin something on me and, having failed, gave me the clearance. The lesson is clear: if you want a clearance in a hurry, put something on your history form that will make them suspicious but that is not damning. The investigators get so many dull backgrounds to check that they relish the possibility of actually nailing someone. By being a bit provocative, you draw priority attention and quicker service. After I received the clearance, I expected no further effects from my provocative answer. As it turned out, there was an unexpected repercussion a year later and an unexpected victory the year after that. But that is another story. Les Earnest

PDheader:1986-03-11 21:14:00-08:00 bd0d6e527688aeba438526d6fc6bb75e ∂11-Mar-86 2114 SELIGMAN@SU-SUSHI.ARPA Oh come on, Les. Tell us. Received: from SU-SUSHI.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 11 Mar 86 21:13:57 PST Date: Tue 11 Mar 86 21:12:29-PST From: Scott M. Seligman <SELIGMAN@SU-SUSHI.ARPA> Subject: Oh come on, Les. Tell us. To: les@SU-AI.ARPA Message-ID: <12190015029.54.SELIGMAN@SU-SUSHI.ARPA>

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PDheader:1986-03-11 22:14:00-08:00 e19af0e226c08d03e3ff40ed6c70d6be ∂11-Mar-86 2214 JGRAY@SU-SUSHI.ARPA More! More! Received: from SU-SUSHI.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 11 Mar 86 22:13:52 PST Date: Tue 11 Mar 86 22:12:08-PST From: Jamison R. Gray <JGRAY@SU-SUSHI.ARPA> Subject: More! More! To: les@SU-AI.ARPA Message-ID: <12190025890.27.JGRAY@SU-SUSHI.ARPA>

I eagerly await the next installment of your chronicle. Now that you've hinted at "another story," I hope you won't disappoint us. -- Jamie -------

PDheader:1986-03-12 04:00:00-08:00 c9f3d83e5072ca5a8ab0f0114b247307 ∂12-Mar-86 0400 alan%ikkyu@SUN.ARPA 12 Year Olds & Mongrels Received: from SUN.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 12 Mar 86 03:59:59 PST Received: from snail.sun.uucp (snail-ptp) by sun.arpa (3.2-/SMI-3.0) id AA19024; Wed, 12 Mar 86 04:00:28 PST Received: from ikkyu.sun.uucp by snail.sun.uucp (3.2-/SMI-3.0DEV4) id AA03933; Wed, 12 Mar 86 03:57:45 PST Received: by ikkyu.sun.uucp (1.1/SMI-3.0DEV3) id AA00393; Wed, 12 Mar 86 04:01:26 PST Date: Wed, 12 Mar 86 04:01:26 PST From: alan%ikkyu@SUN.ARPA (Alan Marr, Sun Graphics) Message-Id: <8603121201.AA00393@ikkyu.sun.uucp> To: LES@SU-AI.ARPA Subject: 12 Year Olds & Mongrels

I have been enjoying your stories on the bulletin board. You are an excellent writer! Thank you. Alan.

PDheader:1986-03-12 09:48:00-08:00 5f3fb7f66944d9a9295d95d800a6b02c ∂12-Mar-86 0948 LAWS@SRI-AI.ARPA Re: Kick the Mongrel Received: from SRI-AI.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 12 Mar 86 09:47:06 PST Date: Wed 12 Mar 86 09:48:24-PST From: Ken Laws <Laws@SRI-AI.ARPA> Subject: Re: Kick the Mongrel To: LES@SU-AI.ARPA cc: su-bboards@SU-AI.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SU-AI.ARPA>" of Tue 11 Mar 86 18:18:00-PST

One of my former professors had made a similar discovery. He had twice forgotten to fill in security-form blanks related to prior criminal convictions, and had twice found his application moved to "the top of the stack". People seem to form a rationalization of "Well, we'd pick this applicant if it weren't for ..."; when the rationalization falls through they hire the guy. I suspect that car dealers use similar tactics: get the customer to state his objection to a car, then prove to him that his objection is unfounded. High-pressure real estate sales are made the same way. -- Ken Laws -------

PDheader:1986-03-12 19:26:00-08:00 9ded638ba9aa70b5ac0d81a6169074be ∂12-Mar-86 1926 LES re: How Do We Get Rid of Typewriters? To: Siegman@SU-SIERRA.ARPA, JMC@SU-AI.ARPA CC: su-bboards@SU-AI.ARPA [In reply to message sent Wed 12 Mar 86 11:15:07-PST.]

John McCarthy says: > Wait till IBM gets around to selling Stanford a general purpose system > that presumes terminals and provides an alternative to multi-part forms. Unfortunately, if you wait for John's solution you will certainly die of old age before you get rid of the typewriters. A more practical step that can be implemented immediately is to mount one or two typewriters on rollable typing stands and timeshare them among a number of typists. We started using this scheme about 16 years ago in the old A.I. Lab and it worked quite well. Of course, someone must be made responsible for keeping the typewriters in repair. You may be able to avoid having so many printers by sharing them using one of the following schemes. 1. Connect the PCs to an ethernet (either directly or via RS232 lines to an ethertip) and use an ethernet laser printer for each office cluster. There may be some software problems in making this work, however. 2. For printers that connect via RS232 interfaces, buy an RS232 switch that connects one port to any one of a number of other ports, connect the printer to one side of the switch and the various PCs to the other, then manually switch the printer to whichever PC needs to print at the moment. 3. Similar switching kludges can be concocted for parallel printer interfaces such as Centronics. This may not always make the secretaries happy but it sould make them feel less crowded. Les Earnest The Missed Punch

PDheader:1986-03-17 01:20:00-08:00 c11884f461c485584eb2ae0a6a79b07f ∂17-Mar-86 0120 LES The Missed Punch To: su-bboards@SU-AI.ARPA

An earlier account described how I came to list my race as "mongrel" on a security clearance application and how the clearance was granted in an unusually short time. I will now describe a subsequent repercussion that happened because of a new computer application. Mongrel in a Star-chamber In early 1965, about a year after I had been granted a supplementary security clearance, I received a certified letter directing me to report to the Air Force Office of Special Investigations near Washington, DC at 6:45 AM on a certain day four weeks later. To one whose brain seldom functions before 10am, this was a singularly unappealing trip request. My wife somehow got me up early on the appointed day and I drove off in my TR-3 with the top down, as usual, even though it was a cold winter morning. I hoped that the air would stimulate my transition to an awakened state. When I arrived and identified myself, I was immediately ushered into a long narrow room with venetian blinds on one side turned to block the meager morning light. I was seated on one side of a table on which there were two goose-neck lamps directed into my eyes. There was no other light in the room, so I could barely see the three inquisitors who took positions on the opposite side of the table. Someone punched on a tape recorder and the trio began taking turns at poking into my past. They appeared to be trying to convince me that I was in deep trouble. While the pace and tone of their questions were clearly aimed at intimidation, they showed surprisingly little interest in my answers. I managed to stay relaxed, partly because I was not yet fully awake. They asked whether I had any association with a certain professor at San Diego State College, which I had attended for one year. I recognized his name as being one who was harassed as an alleged Communist sympathizer by the House Un-American Activities Committee in the 1950s, during the McCarthy Era (Joe, not John). I recalled hearing that the only evidence that the committee had was a photograph taken at a May Day parade in Tijuana in the late 1930's in which one of the marchers looked like him. The parade was organized by Communists. As I recalled, he denied participating in the parade or having any Communist affiliation but lost his faculty position anyway. Responding to the interrogator's question, I answered that I did not know him but that I might have met him socially since he and my mother were on the faculty concurrently. They wanted to know with certainty whether I had taken any classes from him. I said that I had not. They next wanted to know how well I knew Linus Pauling, who they knew was a professor at Caltech when I was a student there. I acknowledged that he was my freshman chemistry professor and that I had visited his home once. (I did not bother to mention that Pauling's lectures had so inspired me that I decided to become a chemist. It took a sophomore course in physical chemistry to bring me back to the realization that chemistry wasn't as much fun as I had thought. After that, I switched majors in rapid succession to Geology, Civil Engineering, then Electrical Engineering. Of course, I ended up in a still different field.) I recalled that Pauling had been regularly harassed by certain government agencies during the McCarthy Era because of his leftist "peacenik" views. He was barred from overseas travel on occasion and the harassment continued even after he won his first Nobel Prize but seemed to diminish after the second one, the peace prize. The inquisitors next wanted to know how often I got together with one of my uncles. I acknowledged that we met occasionally, the last time being a few months earlier when our families dined together. It sounded as though they thought they had something on him. I knew him to be a very bright and able person with a distinguished career in public service. He had been City Manager of Ft. Lauderdale and several other cities and had held a number of diplomatic posts with the State Department. It occurred to me that they might be planning to nail him for associating with a known mongrel. The questions continued in this vein for hours without a break. I kept waiting for them to bring up a Caltech acquaintance named Bernon Mitchell, who had lived in the same student house as me. Mitchell had later taken a position at the National Security Agency, working in cryptography, then defected to the Soviet Union with a fellow employee. They were apparently closet gays. In fact, the inquisitors never mentioned Mitchell. This suggested that they may not have done a very thorough investigation. A more likely explanation was that Mitchell and his boyfriend represented a serious failure of the security clearance establishment -- one that they would rather not talk about. After about three and a half hours of nonstop questioning I was beginning to wake up. I was also beginning to get pissed at their seemingly endless fishing expedition. At this point there was a short pause and a rustling of papers. I sensed that they were finally getting around to the main course. "We note that on your history form you claim to be a mongrel," said the man in the middle. "What makes you think you are a mongrel?" "That seems to be the best available answer to an ill-defined question," I responded. We began an exchange that was very much like my earlier discussion with the security officer in the Defense Communications Agency. As before, I asked how they identified various racial groups and how they classified people who were mixtures of these "races." The interrogators seemed to be taken aback at my asking them questions. They started asking why I was trying to make trouble. I asked them why they would not answer my questions. When no answers were forthcoming, I finally pointed out that "It is clear that you do not know how to determine the race of any given person, so it is unreasonable for you to expect me to. I would now like to know what you want from me." The interrogators began whispering among themselves. They had apparently planned to force me to admit my true race and were not prepared for an alternative outcome. Finally, the man in the center spoke up saying, "Are you willing to sign a sworn statement about your race?" "Certainly," I said. They then turned up the lights and called for a secretary. She appeared with notebook in hand and I dictated a statement: "I declare that to the best of my knowledge I am a mongrel." "Don't you think you should say more than that," said the chief interrogator. "I think that covers it," I replied. The secretary shrugged and went off to type the statement. Punch Line With the main business out of the way, things lightened up -- literally. They opened the venetian blinds to let in some sunlight and offered me a cup of coffee, which I accepted. We had some friendly conversation, then I signed the typed statement, which was duly notarized. My former tormentors now seemed slightly apologetic about the whole affair. I asked them what had prompted this investigation. After some glances back and forth, one of them admitted that "We were putting our clearance data base on punched cards and found that there was no punch for `mongrel'." I thought about this for a moment, then asked "Why didn't you add a new punch?" "We don't have any programmers here" was the answer. "We got the program from another agency." I said, "Surely I am not the only person to give a non-standard answer. With all the civil rights activists now in government service, some of them must have at least refused to answer the race question." The atmosphere became noticably chillier as one of them answered, with clinched teeth, "You're the only one. The rest of those people seem to know their race." It was clear that they believed I had caused this problem, but it appeared to me that the entire thrash was triggered by the combination of a stupid question and the common programmer's blunder of creating a categorization that does not include "Other" as an option. The security people apparently found it impractical to obtain the hour or two of a programmer's time that would have been needed to fix the code to deal with my case, so they chose instead to work with their standard tools. This led to an expenditure of several hundred man-hours of effort in gathering information to try to intimidate me into changing my answer. I was surprised to learn that nearly everyone believed in the mythical concept of racial classification. It appeared that even people who were victims of discrimination acknowledged their classification as part of their identity. I never did find out how the security investigators coped with the fact that I remained a mongrel, but a year later I noticed that something very good had happened that may have been related to this incident. That is another story, however. Les Earnest

PDheader:1986-03-17 22:03:00-08:00 6d1faab0d40a85ea50c13ae5cfff2f30 ∂17-Mar-86 2203 ALTMAN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA Re: The Missed Punch Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 17 Mar 86 21:37:45 PST Date: Mon 17 Mar 86 21:39:22-PST From: Russ Altman <ALTMAN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA> Subject: Re: The Missed Punch To: LES@SU-AI.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SU-AI.ARPA>" of Mon 17 Mar 86 19:22:00-PST Message-ID: <12191592789.62.ALTMAN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>

I enjoy your stories very much. My wife read this last one with me... In fact, you have prompted her to touch my PC keyboard--a rare event! -->you're a wonderful storyteller, I hope Russ lets me know when future stories appear. Something in this story brought to mind a class discussion last week -- a course in Constitutional Law and Minority Issues. I was surprised to see the number of people who regard race as a fictitious, or more descriptively, reified, category. I agree that it seems funny that people would cling so to a classification that has caused so much grief in our collective and personal histories. But as a Chicana (or maybe a mongrel myself, half Mexican, half Irish/Swedish) I've come in the last few years to claim my ethnicity with special pride. There's something satisfying about re-claiming and transforming something -- even if it's not real, but an incredibly strong reification -- into a thing that can become one's own. Thanks for the story. Jeanne Merino -------

PDheader:1986-03-18 13:50:00-08:00 a80db6888de54d57459b15af1adfc23a ∂18-Mar-86 1350 FOGELSONG@SU-CSLI.ARPA Re: The Missed Punch Received: from SU-CSLI.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 18 Mar 86 13:49:03 PST Date: Tue 18 Mar 86 13:44:28-PST From: David Fogelsong <FOGELSONG@SU-CSLI.ARPA> Subject: Re: The Missed Punch To: LES@SU-AI.ARPA cc: su-bboard@SU-CSLI.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SU-AI.ARPA>" of Mon 17 Mar 86 19:22:00-PST

Is your story really true? It sounds like an episode out of 'Brazil'! --David -------

PDheader:1986-03-18 14:36:00-08:00 c24bdfcab8d997a37242504eebdf76b4 ∂18-Mar-86 1436 LES re: The Missed Punch To: FOGELSONG@SU-CSLI.ARPA [In reply to message sent Tue 18 Mar 86 13:44:28-PST.]

Yes, it is all true. Of course I do not remember the exact words used in conversations 21 years ago, so the dialogue is paraphrased.

PDheader:1986-03-18 17:53:00-08:00 4a375e4b21e51781ae3c99622a03db66 ∂18-Mar-86 1753 JDLH@SU-SUSHI.ARPA Re: The Missed Punch Received: from SU-SUSHI.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 18 Mar 86 17:52:50 PST Date: Tue 18 Mar 86 17:50:55-PST From: Jim DeLaHunt <JDLH@SU-SUSHI.ARPA> Subject: Re: The Missed Punch To: LES@SU-AI.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SU-AI.ARPA>" of Mon 17 Mar 86 19:22:00-PST Message-ID: <12191813345.27.JDLH@SU-SUSHI.ARPA>

I love these stories. Please continue them! Thanks! --Jim DeLaHunt JDLH @ Sushi -------

PDheader:1986-03-19 07:52:00-08:00 286025bc90c45ea73801a1bccb9ab44e ∂19-Mar-86 0752 blumen@su-isl.arpa security clearance stories Received: from SU-ISL.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 19 Mar 86 07:52:04 PST Received: by su-isl.arpa with TCP; Wed, 19 Mar 86 07:53:06 pst Date: Wed, 19 Mar 86 07:53:06 pst From: Robert M. Blumen <blumen@su-isl.arpa> Subject: security clearance stories To: les@su-ai.ARPA

Do you know the bboard message numbers of your stories that have appeared this quarter? I didn't save them at the time, but now I would like to. Thanks, Robert Blumen

PDheader:1986-03-20 06:20:00-08:00 123ca2cd114e38d72978e1db70610e80 ∂20-Mar-86 0620 larrabee@decwrl.DEC.COM Another Techer! Well, glory be! Received: from DECWRL.DEC.COM by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 20 Mar 86 06:20:08 PST Received: from acetes.DEC.COM (acetes) by decwrl.DEC.COM (4.22.03/4.7.34) id AA05753; Wed, 19 Mar 86 17:14:11 pst Received: by acetes.DEC.COM (4.22.01/4.7.34) id AA21514; Wed, 19 Mar 86 17:18:19 pst From: larrabee@decwrl.DEC.COM (Tracy Larrabee) Message-Id: <8603200118.AA21514@acetes.DEC.COM> Date: 19 Mar 1986 1718-PST (Wednesday) To: les@sail Cc: larrabee@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: Another Techer! Well, glory be!

I didn't know you were a from Caltech! (I can't tell you how nice it is to find the name of the place spelled correctly on bboard.) I am a 4th year student in CS, and I don't know if we have ever actually met. I graduated in 1978, and I was associated with both Dabney and Ricketts. The inevitable question: which house were you associated with? I have really been enjoying your articles about mongrels, etc. It is nice to know that some folks who went to Caltech can still communicate outside of mathematical equations and computer languages. cheers, Tracy

PDheader:1986-03-20 16:45:00-08:00 e4044c9dfb43bd67dcbde535ac897e86 ∂20-Mar-86 1645 blumen@su-isl.arpa re: security clearance stories Received: from SU-ISL.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 20 Mar 86 16:42:55 PST Received: by su-isl.arpa with TCP; Thu, 20 Mar 86 16:43:54 pst Date: Thu, 20 Mar 86 16:43:54 pst From: Robert M. Blumen <blumen@su-isl.arpa> Subject: re: security clearance stories To: LES@SU-AI.ARPA, blumen@SU-ISL.ARPA

Les, Could you please send copies of the whole set? I enjoyed them very much and want to show them to my roomates, who will both be applying for security clearances soon. Thanks. Robert Blumen

PDheader:1986-03-20 19:16:00-08:00 0d8003083b4e957977283712e55459c8 ∂20-Mar-86 1916 LES re: Another Techer! Well, glory be! To: larrabee@DECWRL.DEC.COM

[In reply to message sent 19 Mar 1986 1718-PST.] There are actually some other folks from Caltech in CSD, such as John McCarthy and Marty Frost. I lived in Blacker and got out in '53. In fact, I was the Pope of Blacker, which I guess is still an elective office there. We used to have holy wars with Dabney and water-fights with Ricketts. I was a member of the Rocket-to-the-Atheneum Society, which took two months of development and testing to achieve the goal of launching a rocket in Blacker Court that would blow up a firecracker in the Atheneum Court. It took a five-stage soda straw rocket and careful aim. I was also a party to the infamous jet plane theft, which almost earned me another FBI record. Good fun! Cheers, Les

PDheader:1986-03-27 18:13:00-08:00 43ed8cc0399aa5d17cd04b2ca78e1ed2 ∂27-Mar-86 1813 LES Worst Pizza Not Considered Harmful To: su-bboards@SU-AI.ARPA

C'mon now; I grew up on ketchup sandwiches made with Wonder Bread. In fact, I had a design patent on the optimum pattern for the ketchup on top of the margerine. My little sister occasionally tried to infringe on this design, so naturally I had to beat her up. My current advanced age is proof that ketchup sandwiches made with Wonder Bread are not harmful, at least below the age of 12. For some reason there do not seem to be many restaurants specializing in this delicacy. In response to Conor Rafferty's inquiry, Yumyum is available online only in SAIL. A new edition will go to press soon. I plan to distribute the draft piecemeal to SU-BBoards and solicit additional reviews. However, I do not wish to stimulate further pizza flames; not even wood flames. Les Earnest Ketchup Gourmet & Yumyum Editor

PDheader:1986-03-27 18:48:00-08:00 dc232f7c202c806113ff1c027c10236a ∂27-Mar-86 1848 LES Flame-up To: su-bboards@SU-AI.ARPA

I wish to congratulate the resourceful person who figured out how to cope with the power outage in Magaret Jacks Hall last weekend. He or she used a flare to light the way to the mail filing cabinet on the second floor, then made a trip to the basement. Unfortunately, the entire route is marked by holes burned in the carpet which will require quite a lot of work to repair. In case anyone else may be tempted to use a flare indoors in the future, I suggest that you check with me first. I know of a much better use for such a flare.

PDheader:1986-03-27 18:48:01-08:00 0964ae666de1c2f36e1e5a69c1cd5c5d ∂27-Mar-86 1848 LES Flame-up To: su-bboards@SU-AI.ARPA

PDheader:1986-03-28 11:34:00-08:00 57af824f8aab04feb4a703a887c10e1e ∂28-Mar-86 1134 trewitt@cascade Re: Worst Pizza Not Considered Harmful Received: from SU-CASCADE.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 28 Mar 86 11:33:43 PST Received: by cascade with Sendmail; Fri, 28 Mar 86 11:32:28 pst Date: Fri, 28 Mar 86 11:32:28 pst From: Glenn Trewitt <trewitt@cascade> To: les@su-ai Subject: Re: Worst Pizza Not Considered Harmful

What? I don't understand. I'm terribly confused. Don't all of your messages end with "but that's another story"? - Glenn Trewitt

PDheader:1986-03-29 14:19:00-08:00 5d4c4c062bb50bd396c7a170504de4fd ∂29-Mar-86 1419 BUCK@SU-SUSHI.ARPA yumyum guide Received: from SU-SUSHI.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 29 Mar 86 14:19:26 PST Date: Sat 29 Mar 86 14:19:18-PST From: Carolyn J. Buck <BUCK@SU-SUSHI.ARPA> Subject: yumyum guide To: les@SU-AI.ARPA Message-ID: <12194658403.11.BUCK@SU-SUSHI.ARPA>

Hi! I had a friend here for a week over break and we did a *lot* of eating out. We came up with reviews for everywhere we went. I also have thought back and come up with comments on some other places I have been to here. I am sending them in a separate message. Feel free to edit anything out that doesn't seem to be necessary. I will be sending more later! BTW, I really have enjoyed your recent bboard postings. Carolyn Buck -------

PDheader:1986-04-11 16:12:00-08:00 8a9220aa74666f903ee7ca58355d7aa5 ∂11-Apr-86 1612 LES All the News that is Fit to Print To: PHayes@SRI-KL.ARPA CC: Laws@SRI-AI.ARPA

Pat, The implied criticism in your 9 April message to AIList got my attention because I know you are a reasonable man. Your questions were adequately answered by Ken Laws, but I would like to throw in a few more points. 'Way back, I was a member of the panel that reviewed the technical proposals for setting up ARPAnet and recommended that BBN be selected as the prime contractor. While I do not set propriety bounds on the use of the network, I grew up with it and so believe that I have a pretty good understanding of the ethical issues involved in its use. You asked "Isn't that [inclusion of product descriptions] (just slightly) illegal?" I trust that you now understand that there is no question of legality involved, though for some reason there is persistent, widespread misunderstanding of this point. It would be improper for a vendor to use the network as a regular advertising medium, but there is nothing improper about new product announcements appearing in this medium, particularly if they are reviewed first by someone with no axe to grind. In the particular case to which you responded, I have no financial interest in Kyoto Common Lisp but saw that it was a new product that was virtually unknown to most people on AIList and would probably be of interest to many of them. The announcement passed my propriety check and apparently Ken Laws' too. In the 15 years that I have been on the network I have seen rather few abuses. The most insideous ones have been by people with a financial conflict-of-interest who hid behind another affiliation (usually a university position) and pretended to provide impartial guidance to others on the network. This has happened a number of times on Laser-Lovers, for example. Anyone who is caught doing this should be publicly ridiculed, at least, and if they persist they should be barred from contributing in the future. Another class of abusers are those who I call the "senseless censors." They apparently do not understand the ethical issues and have a garbled understanding of the rules for network use, leading them to do such silly things as omitting pricing information from product descriptions. Will Martin has nicely covered this issue in a recent message to Human-Nets (attached). Let me now address your first question: "Do we have to have whole 'product descriptions' ( ie advertising brochures ) put out over the net?" The answer is clearly "No," but you neglected to ask the right question: "SHOULD product descriptions be sent to AIList?" My answer and apparently that of Ken Laws is "Yes, for new products that are likely to be of interest to the readership." Of course, the extent to which such announcements are covered is a reasonable question to debate if others (perhaps you?) hold different views, but the decision should be based on interest levels in the readership rather than miscontrued issues of "legality." Les Earnest Cheers, Les

PDheader:1986-04-11 16:13:00-08:00 c3cdb78a1d2f0023967ffa9119aba118 ∂11-Apr-86 1613 LES To: RWW

PDheader:1986-05-12 01:52:00-07:00 27f72bc863766a9530b79466d5b03f20 ∂12-May-86 0152 LES Flaming works sometimes To: su-bboards@SU-AI.ARPA

Some of you may recall my January 15 BBoard harangue on bicycle planning that advocated construction of a circumferential bike route around the central campus, better bicycle parking and storage facilities and other reforms. I subsequently added some ideas gleaned from the BBoard discussion, cast it in the form of a memo and passed it up the administrative chain. After hearing no response for a couple of months, I then contacted staff members in the Planning Office and sent them a copy directly. Happily, I recently received an invitation to meet with them to review the recommendations. When we met last Friday I was pleased to learn that they are taking the recommendations seriously; in fact we reviewed a map study of the possible bike route. We also reviewed some of the existing campus cycling safety problems that I had cited and they seemed inclined to follow my recommended fixes. During the course of these discussions I learned that they plan to redevelop the courtyard between Jacks Hall and the Inner Quad soon and will give particular attention to bicycle parking problems. While I am encouraged by the response of the Planning Office, I recognize that the needed work must be approved at several levels before construction can proceed and that full implementation of the scheme I proposed will require changes in law enforcement that must be approved by the President's Office. Nevertheless, things seem to be moving in the right direction for now. The Planning Office folks seem genuinely pleased to have input from a cycling advocate and promise to invite comments on further planning activities. I mentioned the BBoards as a possible quick-turnaround source of opinions on any given issue (!). Thanks again to those who offered support and encouragement in response to my earlier message. Flaming sometimes helps to get things going!

PDheader:1986-06-10 12:07:00-07:00 8d505d648a92c20edf74a44c49104aae ∂10-Jun-86 1207 LES Paddle Piddle To: KENT@SU-SUSHI.ARPA CC: su-bboards@SU-AI.ARPA [In reply to message sent Tue 10 Jun 86 09:33:18-PDT.]

-------------------------------------- Given that you believe that table tennis is the second largest sport "in the same sense as soccer is the largest" it is clear that you have a sixth sense. Date: Fri, 7 Mar 86 13:18:10 CST From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI <wmartin@ALMSA-1.ARPA> To: human-nets@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: Prices and propriety I've noticed a disturbing trend lately, on both ARPANET mailing lists and digests, and on the USENET newsgroups: people (or moderators) withhold prices from product descriptions or from informational messages, seemingly in the mistaken belief that including price data is somehow "advertising" and therefore either improper use of ARPA or USENET resources. This is *not* true. I speak as one who has been active in the mailing list and Digest traffic since 1976, a systems administrator at an Army computer site, and a participant in USENET via the courtesy of another Army site. I've even seen this kind of "fear" or reticence to give prices on completely non-official USENET groups, like in net.auto, where a person transcribing a piece of advertising literature on an automotive product included all the data except the price, putting in instead a statement that he was deliberately omitting this. This sort of thing makes a mockery of giving information via the net -- price is often one of the most important specifications on any sort of hardware or software! Let me offer a few realistic guidelines about "proper" or "improper" network postings: If you are putting out some product info for altruistic reasons, for the good of others or to warn them away from trouble, and have no personal interest in the success or failure of the vendor that offers that product, you can post *anything*. That includes prices, specs, sources of supply, evaluations, rumors, what-have-you. (You should label facts vs. speculation, of course, but don't withhold info that could help others.) If you are involved with the product, as an employee of the vendor, or a designer and sole proprietor, or otherwise someone "behind" the item, you have to word what you post as information, not as an ad. In this case, you can post facts but not puffery. (If you are an employee with inside knowledge about defects or hidden flaws, and wish to post disparaging or damaging but true info, this is to our advantage, and you are encouraged to do so, realizing, of course, that you are likely to not be an employee any longer. :-) Your affiliation should be given, so readers will know that the info is not coming from a disinterested source. If you are a competitor, and are responding to a posting of a competing organization, or to an independent party's posting about some product, again your involvement should be clearly stated, so readers can know your interest in the outcome or effect of such discussion. I think most people already adhere to these principles, and so this is nothing new. Perhaps it will help to have them explicitly mentioned. Note that nothing in the above prohibits mentioning prices. They are merely other specifications, just as important as speed, size, or the like, and more important than many other specs. In actual procurements, they are often only the starting points for negotiations, in any case. Will Martin USArmy Materiel Command Automated Logistics Mgmt Systems Activity

PDheader:1986-06-11 00:53:00-07:00 7f7379aab1ccf4ba9116abb632f76c84 ∂11-Jun-86 0053 LES TT: More Paddle Piddle To: su-bboards@SU-AI.ARPA

Before I am branded as a table-tennis bigot, let me say that some of my best friends play table tennis. In fact, I've bashed more than a few balls myself. Nevertheless, I can't let baseless propaganda go unchallenged. Mark Kent claims that ``in the same sense as soccer (FIFA) is the largest, table tennis (ITTF) is the second largest.'' But the only measure by which soccer is the largest is in its worldwide total number of spectators. By the same measure, cycling is the second largest sport in the world, as it has been for at least 40 years. These rankings reflect the predominent taste of Europeans. I do not know the rest of the list but believe that widely attended spectator sports in the U.S. such as basketball, football and baseball all rate above table tennis in total number of spectators worldwide. In fact I'll bet that REAL tennis rates well above table tennis by this measure. Bill seems to think that "participation" is the right measure. In order to apply this measure, it is necessary to specify both what we mean by "sport" and by "participation." For example, most Americans regard cycling as a sport, while most Chinese and many Europeans regard it mainly as a means of transportation. If we regard everyone in the world who rides a bicycle to be participating in the "sport of cycling," then I will claim that cycling has the most participants. Soccer has many fewer participants, as do other widely practiced sports such as tennis, volleyball, etc. According to the Associated Press [16 Nov. 1985], the worldwide population of bicycles last year was about 800 million and about 100 million of those bikes were new in '85. The same figures for China alone were 200 million bikes in use and 30 million new ones. The estimated number of bikes in the U.S. in '85 was 78.1 million with 11.4 million of these being less than a year old according to the Bicycle Federation of America. The total number of bicycle riders in any given country is always a bit larger than the number of bicycles. Even on the list of indoor sports, table tennis is well down the list. We all know about the most popular indoor sport. I believe that a number of board games such as chess, checkers and go rank ahead of table tennis in number of participants. In summary, I again invite the table tennis fanatics to back their claims with numbers, preferably from a source that is at least plausible. I think that they are regurgitating misstatements. Les Earnest Cycling Fanatic

PDheader:1986-06-11 18:53:00-07:00 3411fbb45229e5167b435341c965e24c ∂11-Jun-86 1853 LES Flaming in the key of "N" To: su-bboards@SU-AI.ARPA

I agree with John Reuling's general proposal that BBoard be segmented, though I would suggest a slightly different structure. This scheme can be implemented in such a way that the bboard structure is a local option -- the existing "everything on one bboard" system can be maintained on some systems while others can segment their listings under various topics. As an aside, I am puzzled by all the talk about hitting the "N" key. TOPS-20 users appear to believe that they are at the center of the universe. On any decent system, typing "N" causes that letter to appear in your text file. It is clear that trying to distinguish between "flaming" and "commentary" is doomed to failure for the same reason that trying to define pornography is impossible -- it is all in the mind of the beholder. For example, most computer users will recognize my remark above about the "N" key as an obvious truth, while most TOPS-20 users will regard it as a "flame." Experience with Arpanet discussion groups shows that at a certain level of message traffic, either segmentation of the discussion must occur or a significant segment of the population will withdraw. It is clear, for example, that discussions of the type engaged in on this bboard would not work if the population of several Universities were involved. In fact, it wouldn't even work if just the LOTS population were added. Traffic tolerance levels vary among individuals and for a given individual the level varies with time, depending on how harassed he or she feels. There is ample evidence that a substantial segment of the Computer Science Department has already withdrawn from this discussion. There are two ways in which the bboard could be segmented: either break the discussion into smaller groups and maintain general bboards for each group or segment the discussion into more specialized topics. Breaking into groups could be accomplished by splitting along departmental lines, for example, or even by assigning random numbers. My opinion is that it would be more useful to segment the discussion by topic, such as the following. HOUSING -- offers and requests for housing, roommates, etc. JOBS -- offers and requests for positions of all kinds FOOD -- reviews of restaurants and food sources; absurd discussions of White Castle "hamburgers," etc. TRANSPORT -- offers to sell or buy cars, motorcycles, bikes, boats, offers of airline tickets, ride sharing, etc. EVENTS -- announcements of seminars and other events, including ticket offers and requests SALE -- all other offers to sell or buy goods or services; comments on merchants, etc. <department name> -- information of interest to members of a particular department BBOARD -- all other messages of general interest, including "commentary" and "flaming." Other bboards could be spun-off as needed. On systems where separate bboards are maintained for each of these topics, readers can set up lists to connect to just the topics that interest them. On systems where the choice is made to maintain a single bboard, it can be made the destination of some or all of the topic categories shown above. Of course, to make this work, volunteers must be found to maintain all the distribution lists and purge the various bboards periodically, including moving messages that have been sent to the wrong list. There should also be a central "List of Lists," just as for Arpanet discussion groups. Les Earnest P.S. I suggest that the practice of compiling and publishing the number of of contributions by each flamer be ended -- it encourages some people to waste even more of our time.

PDheader:1986-06-13 02:22:00-07:00 1478cf52cb32059ebfd8e6ab6475b2b7 ∂13-Jun-86 0222 LES Segregate Now! To: su-bboards@SU-AI.ARPA

There seems to be enough interest in dividing the bboard so that it is going to happen. As I pointed out earlier, having a set of specialized bboards with mutually exclusive topics does not preclude having "catchall" bboards that get everything; in fact, both schemes can coexist on the same computer, with some waste of disk space. So even irrational diehards will be accomodated as long as they maintain adequate political strength. Several people have mentioned cross-listing of messages as a likely problem. They do not seem to understand that we are talking about categories that are non-overlapping, with rare exceptions. During the introductory period it will be appropriate to resend messages that have been misdirected to the correct destination or, if multiply-listed, back to the originator with an explanation. If anyone is foolish enough to persist in cross-listing he should not be surprised to find his messages disappearing somehow. In order for classified bboards to work well, it is important that their coverage be easy to understand and remember. I think that we should try to keep it simple enough so that people can almost always send their messages to the right list without having to consult a list of lists. This puts the practical upper bound on the number of main categories at about 8. (There will continue to be various lists catering to special interests, of course. I am talking about topics that are of general interest to the Stanford community.) In view of these goals, the classifications should be organized around basic human needs -- jobs, housing, food, transportation, etc. -- in other words something close to the schemes I and certain others have proposed earlier. Of course some people will want to participate mostly in "etc." That's fine. I just noticed that my earlier list overlooks one important human need -- the elimination of bodily wastes. Noting Richard Treitel's assessment of this bboard, I suppose that we could add one called MANURE for reviewing topics such as "Great Restrooms of the West." Seriously, I think that we should get on with it, but formulating specifications in this medium is even harder than doing it by committee. I propose that we try to form a working group by having a face-to-face discussion among interested parties at noon on Wednesday, June 18 at a location in Jacks Hall to be announced. Les Earnest

PDheader:1986-06-16 11:28:00-07:00 5577559435163584198c62f5ed115109 ∂16-Jun-86 1128 REULING@SU-SCORE.ARPA [Peter Karp <KARP@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>: Re: MJH 252] Received: from SU-SCORE.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 16 Jun 86 11:28:46 PDT Date: Mon 16 Jun 86 11:27:38-PDT From: John Reuling <Reuling@SU-SCORE.ARPA> Subject: [Peter Karp <KARP@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>: Re: MJH 252] To: les@SU-AI.ARPA Office: 246 Jacks Hall, Stanford; +1 (415) 725-5555 Message-ID: <12215325608.38.REULING@SU-SCORE.ARPA>

Do you want to respond to this? --------------- Return-Path: <KARP@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA> Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by SU-SCORE.ARPA with TCP; Mon 16 Jun 86 11:26:22-PDT Date: Mon 16 Jun 86 11:25:43-PDT From: Peter Karp <KARP@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA> Subject: Re: MJH 252 To: Reuling@SU-SCORE.ARPA In-Reply-To: <12214874719.11.REULING@SU-SCORE.ARPA> Message-ID: <12215325259.62.KARP@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA> It's not clear to me that Les' hopes that not many people will show up, or your act of scheduling the meeting in 252, will actually cause only a few people to show up. What happens if 50 people do show up? Admittedly it's hard to get a large group of people to come to a decision, but (a) it is possible, and (b) no one says we have to come to a decision at this meeting. I suggest you look into another room as a contingency. Peter ------- -------

PDheader:1986-06-16 14:32:00-07:00 82d2bd05dc505fd1b6ff66604389ac82 ∂16-Jun-86 1432 LES BBoard discussion To: karp@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA CC: Reuling@SU-SCORE.ARPA

It is also not clear that more than 25 people will show up. If a large number appears, then my first remark will be "How many of you are willing to do some work on this problem? Everyone else please leave." We will then have just a handful left. -Les

PDheader:1986-06-16 16:26:00-07:00 7c80da1cbe08e7cea28a4de27b47dbf2 ∂16-Jun-86 1626 KARP@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA Re: BBoard discussion Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 16 Jun 86 16:26:25 PDT Date: Mon 16 Jun 86 16:24:35-PDT From: Peter Karp <KARP@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA> Subject: Re: BBoard discussion To: LES@SU-AI.ARPA cc: Reuling@SU-SCORE.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SU-AI.ARPA>" of Mon 16 Jun 86 14:32:00-PDT Message-ID: <12215379664.62.KARP@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>

If by "do some work" you mean listen and think and generate ideas for an hour, then I expect no one will leave (these activities usually do constitute "work" in our field). If by "do some work" you mean hack some machine to implement a new bboard scheme, then I am rather confused. I thought the purpose of this meeting was to discuss (and hopefully even agree on) possible solutions to the bboard-splitting question. I see no reason why all bboard users should not be able to contribute to this discussion since its outcome will affect them. I also see no reason why programmers only should be able to make these decisions; presumably they are here to serve the Stanford community, and thus should welcome input from that community. I don't believe that either the problem or its solutions have been sufficiently well outlined that the purpose of the meeting should merely be to have a bunch of programmers decide how to best implement a known solution. I'm not suggesting you reserve Stanford Stadium for the invading hordes; I'm merely suggesting that there is a chance that 252 will be too small, and I'm discouraged that you don't appear to be sufficiently concerned by this. Peter -------

PDheader:1986-06-16 17:17:00-07:00 d36e467a4589d1666feb858139c9f718 ∂16-Jun-86 1717 LES re: BBoard discussion To: KARP@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA CC: Reuling@SU-SCORE.ARPA [In reply to message sent Mon 16 Jun 86 16:24:35-PDT.]

You can put any interpretation on my remark that you like. After all, it was proposed as a mechanism to reduce the discussion group to manageable size. If it succeeds, it will have served its purpose. One can't have an interactive discussion of the kind I hope for with 50 people present. Another way of dealing with too large a turnout would be to move to the Oval and hope that the sun takes its toll. Fortunately, the campus looks rather dead right now, so I don't think we will get large numbers.

PDheader:1986-06-16 17:25:00-07:00 38da1604ca2be659872d793a00755c02 ∂16-Jun-86 1725 KARP@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA re: BBoard discussion Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 16 Jun 86 17:24:54 PDT Date: Mon 16 Jun 86 17:22:35-PDT From: Peter Karp <KARP@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA> Subject: re: BBoard discussion To: LES@SU-AI.ARPA cc: Reuling@SU-SCORE.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SU-AI.ARPA>" of Mon 16 Jun 86 17:17:00-PDT Message-ID: <12215390222.62.KARP@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>

I think it's rude to invite people to an event when you have the preconception that they may be turned away, but they do not. Your bboard message implies the meeting is open to all and that no one will be turned away. -------

PDheader:1986-06-16 17:26:00-07:00 e81e15e36be691dda211499f193a58fb ∂16-Jun-86 1726 LES re: BBoard discussion To: KARP@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA [In reply to message sent Mon 16 Jun 86 17:22:35-PDT.]

If you think that is rude, you ain't seen nothing yet.

PDheader:1986-06-16 17:28:00-07:00 b95080a9dec1c39505742361b4c789eb ∂16-Jun-86 1728 KARP@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA Meeting Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 16 Jun 86 17:28:17 PDT Date: Mon 16 Jun 86 17:26:24-PDT From: Peter Karp <KARP@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA> Subject: Meeting To: les@SU-AI.ARPA cc: reuling@SU-SCORE.ARPA Message-ID: <12215390919.62.KARP@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>

I also think a large number of people would be useful in that it would provide a statistically more meaningful sample size which would help to suggest that the opinions of those present represent the opinions of the community as a whole. -------

PDheader:1986-06-16 19:06:00-07:00 a50bc13b8a4af0dcb96766c9115e5e18 ∂16-Jun-86 1906 LES re: [Peter Karp <KARP@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>: Re: MJH 252] To: Reuling@SU-SCORE.ARPA [In reply to message sent Mon 16 Jun 86 11:27:38-PDT.]

Fine. Why don't you organize a large meeting, perhaps at the same time, so that those of us who are interested in a small meeting can have one.

PDheader:1986-06-17 00:56:00-07:00 507ad90ec481b86bd9ebd4eabb7a9c70 ∂17-Jun-86 0056 G.MDP@SU-SCORE.ARPA Re: Segregate Now! Received: from SU-SCORE.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 17 Jun 86 00:56:11 PDT Date: Tue 17 Jun 86 00:55:05-PDT From: Mike Peeler <G.MDP@SU-SCORE.ARPA> Subject: Re: Segregate Now! To: LES@SU-AI.ARPA cc: su-bboards@SU-AI.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SU-AI.ARPA>" of Fri 13 Jun 86 02:22:00-PDT Message-ID: <12215472597.13.G.MDP@SU-SCORE.ARPA>

About resending misdirected messages: the SAIL community is used to messages being moved to the appropriate BBoard. OK. I like SAIL's style of BBoard very much. However, resending a misdirected message to the right BBoard is only half the job. The real problem is removing it from the wrong BBoard on the many sites where it would be appropriate. I'm not saying it can't be done, just clarifying what needs to be done to make what works on SAIL work for SU-BBoards. On the other hand, this sort of control could be more easily exercised at the originating side. Short of an AI program to make the decision automatically, BBoarders will have to decide to which BBoard(s) their messages should go, on an individual basis, and then we have an education problem. The current proposals to split SU-BBoards do not entirely ignore this, but are more optimistic about it than I am. For example, simple proposals for keyword-prefixed subject headers have been put forth, gone into use by only a few, and faded rapidly into obscurity---despite the fact that the proposals were unambitious by design. This shows, I think, that it's hard to train people about something they really want to put zero time into, and harder still because many of them are outside the immediate SU community. That is not to say the educating cannot be done, viz., the Automatic-Bogus-BBoard-Scolder, thanks to which the switch from BBOARD to SU-BBoards has been a success. It can be done. The question is, how obnoxious do we want to be? In fact, whatever happened to BBOARD? Recall that the switch to SU-BBoards was actually supposed to be a split--- the material that was not of general interest would continue to be posted to BBOARD. As far as I can tell, BBOARD no longer receives any postings, i.e., no real split. Enough, Mike -------

PDheader:1986-06-19 08:52:00-07:00 fe1a6a8025eda2b5508dcd0557da4a97 ∂19-Jun-86 0852 FMF@su-sierra.arpa Re: BBoards Received: from SU-SIERRA.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 19 Jun 86 08:52:12 PDT Date: Thu 19 Jun 86 08:51:30-PDT From: Frank M. Fujimoto <FMF@su-sierra.arpa> Subject: Re: BBoards To: LES@su-ai.arpa In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SU-AI.ARPA>" of Wed 18 Jun 86 17:21:00-PDT

Message-ID: <12216083614.22.FMF@su-sierra.arpa> as far as i know, none exists (all such is done through distribution lists). taking a quick look through the bboard directory, the only stanford bboards are su-bboards and the sierra programs bboard (for announcements of new programs, etc.) -frank -------

PDheader:1986-06-19 20:28:00-07:00 6f2d63264815863005bdf7b5644face1 ∂19-Jun-86 2028 LES BBoard Segmentation Meeting To: su-bboards@SU-AI.ARPA

A discussion of possible bboard segmentation structures was held Wednesday noon as previously announced. After reviewing some of the arguments for and against segmentation, specific proposals were considered and a consensus was reached. The proposed new list of bboards is: JOBS - wanted and offered; MARKET - things for sale, "Where do I buy X?", comments on merchants and service providers, "Who is a good dentist?", etc; EVENTS - announcements of seminars, concerts and other events inside and outside Stanford; ticket offers and requests go to MARKET. COMPUTERS - comments on computer services, "How do you do X on system Y?"; no ads for computers -- they go to MARKET; CSD - announcements specific to the Computer Science Department, complaints about coffee service in Jacks Hall, etc.; ETC - everything else. Actually, JOBS was overlooked in the meeting, but subsequent discussions with a number of participants indicates that there is a consensus in favor of keeping it separate from MARKET; it already exists as a separate file on several machines. We invite EE and other interested departments to set up specialized bboards for communication of their department-specific information if they wish. The above categories are intended to be mutually exclusive, so messages should almost never be sent to more than one bboard. As discussed earlier, individual machine administrators may choose to support the above separate bboards or may have all bboard messages directed into a single file, or both, as they wish. We expect that the bboard segmentation will evolve, so we do not wish to adopt a rigid structure. It is recognized that a large number of people know about SU-BBOARDS and must be assisted in getting their messages to the right place, so we plan to keep SU-BBOARDS as an address on participating machines. All messages sent to this address will be forwarded to a mail server on a single machine, which will figure out whether the message originated inside or outside Stanford and take appropriate action: (1) Inside messages will be automatically returned to the sender with a preface describing the current bboards and asking that it be dispatched directly to the appropriate bboard. (2) Messages originating outside Stanford will be sent to a human "sorter" who will forward them to the appropriate bboard. This way, we retain a simple, unchanging interface to the outside world. We plan to wait a week or so before beginning implementation of this scheme, to permit specific plans to be made by various system administrators. An additional discussion was held during the meeting on the topic of what kinds of information services would we like to have if suitable software could be developed. This discussion will be reviewed in a separate message shortly. Les Earnest

PDheader:1986-06-20 13:55:00-07:00 028e0449bf918e4191716722864deaba ∂20-Jun-86 1355 ANDY@su-sushi.arpa Re: BBoard Segmentation Meeting Received: from SU-SUSHI.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 20 Jun 86 13:55:47 PDT Date: Fri 20 Jun 86 13:54:18-PDT From: Andy Freeman <ANDY@su-sushi.arpa> Subject: Re: BBoard Segmentation Meeting To: LES@su-ai.arpa In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SU-AI.ARPA>" of Thu 19 Jun 86 20:28:00-PDT Message-ID: <12216400883.23.ANDY@su-sushi.arpa>

You brought up JOBS fairly early in the meeting. The agreement that I remember (and support) is that jobs went in MARKET. (I still dislike the name market but inquiry is worse. I'm looking for a better name.) I still claim that EVENTS is misnamed. One example is course announcements; both of courses and changes in specific courses (like errors in the final for cs295). They should not go in the department bboards; they should go in (a correctly named) events. (EE and CS cross-list at random.) Why do you prefer EVENTS to ANNOUNCEMENTS? Length of bboard names is unimportant on unix and tops-20. Are you trying to preserve <=6 character names for SAIL? (If so, why is computers acceptable?) -andy -------

PDheader:1986-06-20 16:17:00-07:00 fc11126c70b3c39b53feda8a6cb31271 ∂20-Jun-86 1617 SCHMIDT@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA Re: BBoard Segmentation Meeting Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 20 Jun 86 16:16:57 PDT Date: Fri 20 Jun 86 16:15:07-PDT From: Christopher Schmidt <SCHMIDT@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA> Subject: Re: BBoard Segmentation Meeting To: LES@SU-AI.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SU-AI.ARPA>" of Thu 19 Jun 86 20:28:00-PDT Message-ID: <12216426516.45.SCHMIDT@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>

I infer from your segmentation message that ETC is intended as what I would less-euphemistically call the FLAME or POLITICS bboard. Where would one send/read miscellaneous non-political messages that don't fit one of the other categories? Maybe we need a MISC in addition to ETC?? I'm sorry I missed the meeting--scheduling conflict. --Christopher -------

PDheader:1986-06-20 18:01:00-07:00 b067651e754d9280330745e3f07c0141 ∂20-Jun-86 1801 LES re: BBoard Segmentation Meeting To: ANDY@SU-SUSHI.ARPA [In reply to message sent Fri 20 Jun 86 13:54:18-PDT.]

I thought that I had neglected to mention JOBS. In fact, the first six people that I talked to after the meeting and who had been there said they had the same impression but confirmed that in their opinion it should be separate. I don't feel strongly one way or the other, but note that it makes sense to separate it because (1) jobs are of interest to relatively few bboard readers and (2) jobs postings should probably stay on the bboard longer than most offerings of things for sale. An alternative name for MARKET is ADS, which has the advantage of being shorter but is also a bit too narrow in meaning. I believe that EVENTS is exactly the right name because announcements of the kind you propose don't belong there. The best way to handle such announcements would be with a distribution list; failing that, a file called CS295 or some such should be put in a place where anyone can FTP and read it. Length of bboard names is important to anyone who is sending mail to one of them. Les

PDheader:1986-06-20 18:13:00-07:00 8e42755cc493c713fcaa62b067b6ed7b ∂20-Jun-86 1813 LES re: BBoard Segmentation Meeting To: SCHMIDT@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA [In reply to message sent Fri 20 Jun 86 16:15:07-PDT.]

Actualy ETC is meant to get "everything else." It would be hopeless to try to segregate flames for the simple reason that one person's statement of facts is another person's flame (e.g. read Hussein). We could consider trying to put politics on a separate bboard, but the boundary between politics and other topics is not well defined. If we were to consider further splitting of ETC, I would suggest using a reasonably well-defined categorization such as one based on geography: e.g. STANFORD, USA, MIDEAST, ELSEWHERE. Les

PDheader:1986-06-21 17:43:00-07:00 7ff6a0f120b4f1eda70ba29adf5dfedf ∂21-Jun-86 1743 LES re: BBoard Segmentation Meeting To: ANDY@SU-SUSHI.ARPA [In reply to message sent Fri 20 Jun 86 18:22:42-PDT.]

If someone feels the need to use bboards for class announcements, even though that is marginally inappropriate, they need only adopt a convention: CSD is perfectly reasonable for CS courses; ETC could be used. Of course, whatever scheme is used, the class must be told in advance. It would be unreasonable to expect everyone to read any particular bboard unless it was pre-specified.

PDheader:1986-06-22 10:42:00-07:00 8e6c3c9485ea634b59acde84ec73723d ∂22-Jun-86 1042 LES re: BBoard Segmentation Meeting To: asente@SU-CASCADE.ARPA [In reply to message sent Sun, 22 Jun 86 00:25:53 pdt.]

I agree with you and, in fact, proposed that housing be separate during the meeting last Wednesday. Though we took no formal votes, the majority appeared to favor keeping the various ads together. I decided to go along with this, knowing that it should be rather easy to segment further after we gain some experience.

PDheader:1986-06-22 10:49:00-07:00 0bd71e058796446ca1f94860f4743ce6 ∂22-Jun-86 1049 LES re: more bboard concerns To: MACMILK@SU-SCORE.ARPA [In reply to message sent Sun 22 Jun 86 09:59:41-PDT.]

My preferance would be to either set up a class distribution list or a special bboard for the class to check (e.g. <foo>cs123@sushi). No instructor should expect everyone in the class to read a bboard unless he has told them to, so if he wishes to (mis)use the bboard system for class announcements, he must specify which one. For a CS course, the CSD bboard would be logical; alternatively ETC could be used.

PDheader:1986-06-23 10:41:00-07:00 5c967084439fd35bb4b02c97fb740c0f ∂23-Jun-86 1041 lantz@su-gregorio.arpa bboards Received: from SU-GREGORIO.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 23 Jun 86 10:40:51 PDT Received: by su-gregorio.arpa with Sendmail; Mon, 23 Jun 86 10:39:41 pdt Date: 23 Jun 1986 1039-PDT (Monday) From: Keith Lantz <lantz@su-gregorio.arpa> To: les@sail, bosack@score Cc: lantz@su-gregorio.arpa Subject: bboards

As you may have noticed on su-bboards (and as Len may remember from my telling him a couple of years ago), one of my students has put together a pretty nifty bboard system -- as the basis for a thesis that's really about naming and replication. It currently runs only under the V-System and I have no estimates as to what it would take to port. Nevertheless, I was wondering (again) whether CSD-CF (or Les or ...) would be interested in pursuing it as a solution to our bboard problems. Comments? Keith P.S. It handles mail to and from any SMTP site as well as Taliesin (that's its name)-only mail, and it handles personal mail as well as bboards. For a short intro, you are referred to the "Taliesin" tech report, whose number I don't remember, but Taleen should be able to figure it out. For a serious discussion, copies of her thesis can be available upon her return from vacation.

PDheader:1986-06-23 13:05:00-07:00 d4329c925dd8684d2cb16636e6a13db5 ∂23-Jun-86 1305 SCHMIDT@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA re: BBoard Segmentation Meeting Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 23 Jun 86 13:05:27 PDT Date: Mon 23 Jun 86 13:03:31-PDT From: Christopher Schmidt <SCHMIDT@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA> Subject: re: BBoard Segmentation Meeting To: LES@SU-AI.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SU-AI.ARPA>" of Fri 20 Jun 86 18:13:00-PDT Message-ID: <12217178069.39.SCHMIDT@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>

Thanks for the note. I suspected that the rationale for not having a POLITICS bboard was the difficulty of discrimination but wanted to check, since I was unable to attend the meeting. Although I'm definitely pro-split, I'm afraid that the folding of POLITICS and ETC means that I'll end up reading all the new bboards anyway. ...unless the CSD bboard turns out to be a MJH bboard. As a CSD person who rarely visits MJH, I slightly object to the characterization of the CSD bboard as the place to sends gripes about coffee machines. In the KSL, we have a bboard WELCH-ROAD (distinct from the KSL mailing list) for coffee/building issues. Coffee-type messages are sufficiently rare that I don't consider them a problem though. I'm more than willing to go with the present proposal and see how things evolve. Thanks for making the split a reality. --Christopher -------

PDheader:1986-07-03 16:42:00-07:00 f97994a4491dd9465d78336ee5984570 ∂03-Jul-86 1642 LES Supreme Court Approves Racism To: su-bboards@SU-AI.ARPA

After screwing up the sodomy laws, so to speak, the U.S. Supreme Court has just taken another dangerous step in the direction of increased government intervention by approving the use of racial quotas in affirmative action programs. Yes, I know that affirmative action quotas constitute "benign" racism and are intended just to compensate for historical wrongs. The trouble is that this puts government bureaucrats into the business of defining racial and ethnic classifications and deciding who belongs in which category. While the goal of compensating for past discrimination is a noble one, I believe that this solution is both unworkable and dangerous. There is, of course, no scientific basis for classifying individuals as members of a particular race. When you put an ill-defined concept such as this together with governmental enforcement, there is a wonderful opportunity for developing ever-increasing layers of administrative nonsense. The resulting enforcement establishment will eventually take on a life of its own and will long outlive whatever problem it was supposedly trying to solve. I believe that the government should come down hard on any provable cases of discrimination and work toward having a "color blind" society. You can't get there by re-institutionalizing the racial classification system that we started to shed just 20 years ago. Les Earnest Mongrel

PDheader:1986-07-07 00:06:00-07:00 7ba86c260d276df40c6e424988fd5cb1 ∂07-Jul-86 0006 REULING@SU-SCORE.ARPA su-bboard split Received: from SU-SCORE.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 7 Jul 86 00:01:14 PDT Date: Sun 6 Jul 86 23:57:59-PDT From: John Reuling <Reuling@SU-SCORE.ARPA> Subject: su-bboard split To: Les@SU-AI.ARPA Office: 246 Jacks Hall, Stanford; +1 (415) 725-5555 Message-ID: <12220705085.21.REULING@SU-SCORE.ARPA>

Well, where do we go from here? There hasn't been any discussion of the su-bboard split in days. Shall we just announce that we're going ahead with the split as proposed at the meeting (plus the jobs bboard)? What about my suggestion that we rename the sub-bboards something like SU-Jobs, SU-Computers, etc.? Also, have you heard back from Dan Kolkowitz about setting up the pipe to process messages sent to the old SU-BBOARDS address? My suggestion is to set up all of the new bboards right now and have them run in parallel with the old SU-BBOARDS for at least a week while we make sure that all of the mailing aliases work on various systems. We might even want to start with just the CSD machines and then announce it to other sites when we have everything set up here. What do you think? -J -------

PDheader:1986-07-07 00:51:00-07:00 2be118dc2d23256cebee28eb21dd2447 ∂07-Jul-86 0051 LES re: su-bboard split To: Reuling@SU-SCORE.ARPA [In reply to message sent Sun 6 Jul 86 23:57:59-PDT.]

I agree with the idea of putting "SU-" in front of the various names, though it probably isn't needed or appropriate for the CSD bboard. I aksed Dan to fiddle the mailing phantom to do the right thing a couple of weeks ago and he said he would, but he may have been distracted by the arrival of his first offspring in the meantime. I'll check with him on Monday. I would suggest establishing the new names, choosing a starting date (e.g. next Saturday), informing the various bboard people, then setting up the redistribution scheme by that time. For those computers whose administrators do not respond in time, we just leave all the bboards aimed at their same old file. They can split their bboards whenever they like. The key thing that has to happen at cutover is that things sent to SU-BBOARDS should get handled by the new remailer; this should be made to happen everywhere at once if possible. Let's talk about it later today if you are in. Les

PDheader:1986-07-09 13:30:00-07:00 012562652b1726811ccd2ddb25e6a2cd ∂09-Jul-86 1330 LES Paddle Propaganda To: su-bboards@SU-AI.ARPA

Now that Mark Kent has kindly provided the quotation from the USTTA "fact sheet," we can assess the credibility of their claim that "Table Tennis is the world's second largest participation sport." I note that no worldwide participation figures are given, but they do state that there are "Over 19,000,000 playing recreational table tennis in the United States." On the other hand, the Bicycling Federation of America reports that in 1985 there were about 78,100,000 bicyclists in the U.S. in 1985. Worldwide there are about 1 BILLION cyclists. It seems clear that the claim that table tennis is the #2 participation sport (after soccer) is nonsense.

PDheader:1986-07-10 12:49:00-07:00 02957beb075964d60d244b160c8919e4 ∂10-Jul-86 1249 LES Paddling vs. Cycling To: su-bboards@SU-AI.ARPA

The cycling participation figures that I quoted reflect the number of people who rode a bike one or more times in the preceding year. The table tennis quotations do not make clear their basis, but I would expect it to be similar.

PDheader:1986-07-10 14:18:00-07:00 b421147bce4fd91bbd308d6bc694b96d ∂10-Jul-86 1418 LES Ticketing as a form of taxation To: su-bboards@SU-AI.ARPA

Most states and especially California put up many too many stop signs. Most locations where they appear would be better served by, at most, a "Yield" sign. Visit England and you will see very few stop signs, yet traffic moves more smoothly there than here for similar road and traffic conditions. For a person riding a bicycle at normal speeds, coming to a stop at such signs is simply a waste of time, no matter what the law says. When biking I treat stop signs as yield signs. In similar style, when driving on freeways I seldom go as slow as 55 MPH. I never have collisions or even come close. There is, of course, a price to pay. I get ticketed every year or two for one of these illicit activities. I don't complain about these tickets to those who bestow them and I pay them promptly. I regard this as a form of taxation that is part of the cost of living in a country that generally works well, but happens to suffer from legislative and administrative irrationality in certain areas.

PDheader:1986-07-13 17:40:00-07:00 f047eccfeecc6a427d70282196424965 ∂13-Jul-86 1740 LES re: Software Sillies To: su-bboards@SU-AI.ARPA [In reply to message sent Sun 13 Jul 86 12:35:30-PDT.]

Sometimes apparent software bugs turn out to be hardware. I recall being involved in the design of a flight simulator for a new fighter aircraft long ago. The simulation was based on a set of differential equations provided by the aircraft manufacturer. Tests of the prototype flight simulator showed an obvious bug, however. In certain flight regimes, it would go into an uncontrollable pitch-up maneuver, which would have had the effect of tearing the wings off. When the aircraft designers were asked to find the bug in the simulation, they took several weeks to answer, then admitted that the simulation was accurate. They ended up adding an audible alarm in the cockpit that encouraged the pilot to avoid the unstable condition. Les Earnest

PDheader:1986-07-13 17:40:01-07:00 44c9e75a5338aaf6c6db2f9d1b1abe88 ∂13-Jul-86 1740 LES re: Software Sillies To: su-bboards@SU-AI.ARPA [In reply to message sent Sun 13 Jul 86 12:35:30-PDT.]

Now I have to cover the cost (regular income) of this "free" car as well as dealing with the high-quality problem of having 3.5 cars and 2 drivers. Sooo, I have for sale one Sometimes apparent software bugs turn out to be hardware. I recall being involved in the design of a flight simulator for a new fighter aircraft long ago. The simulation was based on a set of differential equations provided by the aircraft manufacturer. Tests of the prototype flight simulator showed an obvious bug, however. In certain flight regimes, it would go into an uncontrollable pitch-up maneuver, which would have had the effect of tearing the wings off. 1988 RENAULT MEDALLION When the aircraft designers were asked to find the bug in the simulation, they took several weeks to answer, then admitted that the simulation was accurate. They ended up adding an audible alarm in the cockpit that encouraged the pilot to avoid the unstable condition. Les Earnest You choose the color: white, silver, charcoal, black, burgundy, beige, medium blue, dark blue.

PDheader:1986-07-21 17:34:00-07:00 20e2e4e47fb03f613572ad69a765c15e ∂21-Jul-86 1734 REULING@SU-SCORE.ARPA SU-BBOARDs split: The next step Received: from SU-SCORE.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 21 Jul 86 17:34:14 PDT Date: Mon 21 Jul 86 17:32:28-PDT From: John Reuling <Reuling@SU-SCORE.ARPA> Subject: SU-BBOARDs split: The next step To: su-bboards-maintainers@SU-NAVAJO.ARPA cc: kolk@SU-CARMEL.ARPA, les@SU-AI.ARPA Office: 246 Jacks Hall, Stanford; +1 (415) 725-5555 Message-ID: <12224567061.27.REULING@SU-SCORE.ARPA>

Here's an updated proposal for splitting SU-BBOARDS... The segmentation of SU-BBOARDS is scheduled to start this Wednesday (July 23) at 6:00pm. Thereafter, all cooperating computer facilities should accept mail to all of the following bboard addresses. SU-JOBS - jobs wanted or offered; SU-MARKET - things for sale, "Where do I buy X?", comments on merchants and service providers, "Who is a good dentist?", etc; SU-EVENTS - announcements of seminars, concerts and other events inside and outside Stanford; ticket offers and requests go to MARKET. SU-COMPUTERS - comments on computer services, "How do you do X on system Y?"; no ads for computers -- they go to MARKET; SU-ETC - everything else. Mail sent to these addresses should be redistributed via your local copies of the new SU distribution lists (explained below) or else via SCORE, as follows: SU-JOBS -> SU-JOBS@SCORE SU-MARKET -> SU-MARKET@SCORE SU-EVENTS -> SU-EVENTS@SCORE SU-COMPUTERS -> SU-COMPUTERS@SCORE SU-ETC -> SU-ETC@SCORE If you wish to receive all messages to all of the new split bboards in one @i[combined] bboard at your site, you shouldn't need to do anything. By default, the new redistribution lists remail to the LOCAL-BBOARD-ONLY address at any site that hasn't yet switched to split bboards. If you would like to receive messages in @i[separate] bboards, you should also set up addresess for incoming messages for your local copies of these bboards: LOCAL-JOBS-ONLY -> <local SU-JOBS bboard> LOCAL-MARKET-ONLY -> <local SU-MARKET bboard> LOCAL-EVENTS-ONLY -> <local SU-EVENTS bboard> LOCAL-COMPUTERS-ONLY -> <local SU-COMPUTERS bboard> LOCAL-ETC-ONLY -> <local SU-ETC bboard> And then notify REULING@SCORE to modify the distribution lists on SCORE. (After we've settled into the new system, changes should be reported to su-bboards-maintainers@NAVAJO). Any mail sent to SU-BBOARDS after the changeover (Wednesday at 6pm) should be forwarded to SU-BBOARDS-FILTER@NAVAJO. The mailer on Navajo will then figure out whether the message originated inside or outside Stanford and take appropriate action: (1) Inside messages will be automatically returned to the sender with a preface describing the current bboards (i.e. the information above) and asking that it be dispatched directly to the appropriate bboard. (2) Messages originating outside Stanford will be sent to a human "sorter" who will forward them to the appropriate bboard. This way, we retain a simple, unchanging interface to the outside world. Distribution lists for each of the above addresses will be maintained in TOPS-20 format on SCORE in these files: MAIL:SU-JOBS.DIS MAIL:SU-MARKET.DIS MAIL:SU-EVENTS.DIS MAIL:SU-COMPUTERS.DIS MAIL:SU-ETC.DIS Sites may choose to redsitribute messages to the new bboards through SCORE or they may set up local redistribution entries by FTP'ing the files listed above. Score's copies of these files will be considered the "master" copies. Some sites may want to transfer these files automatically from Score on a nightly basis. (It is not difficult to convert from TOPS-20- to UNIX- formatted distribution lists). In the future, the distribution list files cited above will be kept current and whenever sites are added or deleted, all su-bboards-maintainers will be notified by email. All of the new bboards have already been set up on Score and Sushi. If you are interested, take a look in MAIL:MAILING-LISTS.TXT to see how things have been set up on those sites. The bboards themselves are in the files PS:<BBOARD>SU-*.TXT and PS:<BBOARD>SU-*.IDX. We plan to announce the date and time of the planned segmentation via (the old) SU-BBOARDS on Wednesday afternoon and suggest that you inform your users about local segmentation plans around then. If you have any questions about the planned changeover or foresee any serious problems, please let me know as soon as possible. Thanks. John Reuling, with much help from Les Earnest (Les@Sail) and Dan Kolkowitz (kolk@Carmel) -------

PDheader:1986-07-22 10:42:00-07:00 e7abb737c44e36b2d4e51786f1f7c0d8 ∂22-Jul-86 1042 REULING@SU-SCORE.ARPA more on Split Bboards Received: from SU-SCORE.ARPA by SU-AI.ARPA with TCP; 22 Jul 86 10:42:05 PDT Date: Tue 22 Jul 86 10:40:10-PDT From: John Reuling <Reuling@SU-SCORE.ARPA> Subject: more on Split Bboards To: su-bboards-maintainers@SU-NAVAJO.ARPA cc: les@SU-AI.ARPA, kolk@SU-NAVAJO.ARPA Office: 246 Jacks Hall, Stanford; +1 (415) 725-5555 Message-ID: <12224754148.40.REULING@SU-SCORE.ARPA>

In my previous message I neglected to mention that we will continue to support the CSD bboard after the split of SU-BBOARDS. CSD machines will carry the CSD bboard. Non-CSD machines may carry the CSD bboard if they want. Send me mail if you want to set up a local copy of the CSD bboard. The distribution list for the CSD bboard is in the file: [Score]MAIL:CSD.DIS. -John -------

PDheader:1986-07-23 15:48:00-07:00 2d85abe905bc30df6344daf0ec40cba1 ∂23-Jul-86 1548 LES BBoard Segmentation To: su-bboards@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU

The segmentation of SU-BBOARDS is scheduled to occur today, Wednesday, July 23 at 6:00pm. Thereafter, all cooperating computer facilities should accept mail to all of the following bboard addresses. SU-JOBS - jobs wanted or offered; SU-MARKET - things for sale, "Where do I buy X?", comments on merchants and service providers, "Who is a good dentist?", etc; SU-EVENTS - announcements of seminars, concerts and other events inside and outside Stanford; ticket offers and requests go to MARKET. SU-COMPUTERS - comments on computer services, "How do you do X on system Y?"; no ads for computers -- they go to MARKET; CSD - announcements specific to the Computer Science Department, complaints about coffee service in Jacks Hall, etc.; SU-ETC - everything else. The CSD bboard will be supported on the primary CSD machines but is optional elsewhere. Please note that these bboards are intended to be mutually exclusive with few exceptions; please do not send to more than one. Cooperating systems may continue to support a single bboard for awhile, which will receive messages sent to any of the above. Individual system administrators will announce when (if ever) the changeover to segmented bboards will occur on their machines. Any mail sent to SU-BBOARDS from Stanford machines after the changeover will be returned to the sender together with a request that it be sent to one of the above bboards. Messages sent to SU-BBOARDS from outside Stanford will be reviewed by an artificially intelligent agent and forwarded to the appropriate list. I solicit volunteers who already have accounts on SUSHI who are willing to perform this screening function occasionally. My thanks to Dan Kolkowitz for making necessary changes to the mail scolder and to John Reuling for doing the rest of the necessary technical preparations for this changeover. Les Earnest

PDheader:1986-07-23 16:19:00-07:00 8ad5f76de6282dc0cb9525ef213396d4 ∂23-Jul-86 1619 LES SU-BBOARDS screening To: Kolkowitz@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU CC: Reuling@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU [Dan: Here is text for your "scolder" program. -Les]

SU-BBOARDS have recently been segmented into the following topics. Please send your message directly to the appropriate bboard. SU-JOBS - jobs wanted or offered; SU-MARKET - things for sale, "Where do I buy X?", comments on merchants and service providers, "Who is a good dentist?", etc; SU-EVENTS - announcements of seminars, concerts and other events inside and outside Stanford; ticket offers and requests go to MARKET. SU-COMPUTERS - comments on computer services, "How do you do X on system Y?"; no ads for computers -- they go to MARKET; CSD - announcements specific to the Computer Science Department, complaints about coffee service in Jacks Hall, etc.; SU-ETC - everything else. Note that these bboards are intended to be mutually exclusive with few exceptions. Please avoid sending to more than one. SU-BBOARDS continues to be a valid address for messages from outside Stanford. Such messages will be manually screened and forwarded to the appropriate list.

PDheader:1986-07-23 18:18:00-07:00 afef1183993a1ac1a52540535b721c65 ∂23-Jul-86 1818 Mailer@Sierra.Stanford.EDU Message of 23-Jul-86 18:18:13 Received: from SIERRA.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 23 Jul 86 18:16:41 PDT Date: Wed 23 Jul 86 18:18:16-PDT From: The Mailer Daemon <Mailer@Sierra.Stanford.EDU> To: LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU Subject: Message of 23-Jul-86 18:18:13

Message failed for the following: *BBD:MAIL.TXT.1@Sierra.Stanford.EDU.#Internet: File not found ------------ Received: from SAIL.STANFORD.EDU by Sierra.Stanford.EDU with TCP; Wed 23 Jul 86 18:18:16-PDT Date: 23 Jul 86 1814 PDT From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU> Subject: Test To: su-bboards@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU I hope this doesn't work. -------

PDheader:1986-07-24 14:53:00-07:00 7e0515e0030ec87fb0a2fae809bbf2be ∂24-Jul-86 1453 trewitt@amadeus.stanford.edu USENET news feed for new bboards Received: from AMADEUS.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 24 Jul 86 14:05:57 PDT Received: by amadeus.stanford.edu; Thu, 24 Jul 86 14:06:36 PDT Date: 24 Jul 1986 1406-PDT (Thursday) From: Glenn Trewitt <trewitt@amadeus.stanford.edu> To: les@SAIL.Stanford.EDU Cc: kolk@navajo.stanford.edu, reuling@sierra.stanford.edu,

Stuart Marks <marks@cascade.stanford.edu>, Ernie Wood <wood@cascade.stanford.edu>, Glenn Trewitt <trewitt@amadeus.stanford.edu> Subject: USENET news feed for new bboards [Please do not make any distribution changes for Glacier until we all understand what's going to happen.] We (Stuart Marks and I) are in the process of setting up USENET (UNIX) news feeds for the new bboards. In the process of doing this, however, we came up with some questions: 1) There are currently newsgroups named csd.bboard and csd.phd-program. They do not feed into the news system on Glacier, which is the normal place. Could you poke around on the mailing lists and see where the master list lives? 2) I was planning to use the newsgroup name "csd.bboard" for your address "csd". Given that there is already this csd.bboard newsgroup in existence, I'd like to reconcile the two entities. Only problem is, I don't know where csd.bboard comes from. Hoped-for result: Glacier will be the news feed for the following addresses/newsgroups local-bboard-only => su.bboard su-jobs => su.jobs su-market => su.market su-events => su.events su-computers => su.computers su-colloq => su.colloq su-etc => su.etc su-nethax => su.nethax su-vaxhax => su.vaxhax csd => csd.bboard csd-phd-program => csd.phd-program The other news feed for csd.bboard and csd.phd-program (whereever it is) should be turned off. (Or, if you prefer to keep CSD things on CSD machines, just put the new "CSD" feed on whatever VAX the current csd.* newsgroups are on. - Glenn

PDheader:1986-07-24 20:25:00-07:00 455ec49aedd163155ca0f539aeae286e ∂24-Jul-86 2025 JR SEGMENTATION: Status Report To: su-bboards-maintainers@NAVAJO.STANFORD.EDU CC: LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU, kolk@NAVAJO.STANFORD.EDU

So far the following sites are known to support split SU-BBOARDS: CSLI, LOTS, HELENS, SCORE, SUSHI, and SIERRA The mailing lists on Score and Sushi for the SU-* groups include all of these hosts. If there are other hosts now supporting split bboards, please let me know. FYI: Glenn Trewitt and Stuart Marks are working on the USENET news feed (on glacier) for these new su.* newsgroups. -John

PDheader:1986-07-25 13:13:00-07:00 eb04463f35bb2a1327e89c4888bbf075 ∂25-Jul-86 1313 JJW BBoards To: LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU, ME@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU CC: RTC@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU, DON@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU

Since we're switching to a new multiple-BBoard system, I think this is a good time to consider whether any changes to SAIL's current BBoard setup are worthwhile. Here are some questions I'd like to raise: 1. Should we continue the practice of merging replies onto the same page as their original message? If so, can this somehow be automated, and not interfere with people reading the file? 2. Replies originating from SAIL and edited into the file have been a problem: people may forget to forward them to other BBoards, or use the OTHER-SU-BBOARDS address causing replies to those messages not to go onto our BBoard. Should we discontinue this practice, and tell our users to use MAIL for all BBoard messages, whether original messages or replies? 3. The file BBOARD.TXT[2,2] will go away. (Maybe for a while it should contain a message telling people about the new system.) The \BBOARD filehack will thus become useless. Should there be new filehacks for the new files? What should the new files be called? 4. Is CKSUM the best way to keep track of BBoards? If all text in the BBoard files is put there by MAIL, then it would be simpler and faster to keep track of which messages a user has seen, instead of checksumming the text. With some cleverness, we might be able to merge replies onto the page with their original message and still keep track of which messages have been seen. 5. Is E the best way to read BBoards? NS or some variation of it could be an alternative. 6. Can the purge process be fully automated? I've probably shown my bias in the way I phrased some of the above questions. I'd like to make MAIL the only way to add text to a BBoard file (with exceptions for wizards), but still allow merging of messages if it's technically feasible. To make this work, the files would have to be write protected against ordinary users. Someone able to write the file should periodically update the E directory, however. I'd still like to keep E as the main method of reading the files, but perhaps E could be enhanced with special commands for BBoards, such as a REPLY command (which would be useful for mail files, as well), and code to keep track of seen and unseen message in an auxiliary file, eliminating the need for CKSUM. Some of these ideas would probably take a fair amount of work to implement. Comments?

PDheader:1986-07-25 13:53:00-07:00 12fa9d09c02bb0003e2d6d00279b4c4d ∂25-Jul-86 1353 RTC Re: BBoards To: JJW@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU, LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU,

ME@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU CC: DON@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU I find E a much easier way to read bboards than MM is on other tops-20 systems. I think that NS would have many of the same problems as other specialized bboard-reading programs. I also prefer the system of merging messages to having only one message on each page. I can't see any problem replacing CKSUM with a similar program which just pointed E at the message header lines which have been added since the last time the user read the file. This would also discourage adding messages by editing the file, since messages without a header wouldn't be read by anyone else. I am sure the purging process could be almost completely automated. The easiest way would be to do exactly what is done now, but do it in a batch job early in the morning. Changes to the purge page could be made later by hand if necessary. Do you want me to try to do it? Merging is more of a problem. I know what I really want - it is for E (and probably the file system) to understand the concept of multiple updates to a file. That is too much to ask for, and I don't know how to cut it down to size. Ross.

PDheader:1986-07-29 12:16:00-07:00 d87e9ed36ba38409804fc157b5cda73c ∂29-Jul-86 1216 REULING@SU-SCORE.ARPA BBOARDs status report Received: from SCORE.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 29 Jul 86 10:26:29 PDT Date: Tue 29 Jul 86 09:23:16-PDT From: John Reuling <Reuling@SU-SCORE.ARPA> Subject: BBOARDs status report To: su-bboards-maintainers@NAVAJO.STANFORD.EDU cc: kolk@NAVAJO.STANFORD.EDU, les@SU-AI.ARPA, marks@CASCADE.STANFORD.EDU,

fmf@SU-SIERRA.ARPA Office: 246 Jacks Hall, Stanford; +1 (415) 725-5555 Message-ID: <12226575157.39.REULING@SU-SCORE.ARPA> The following sites are now accepting mail to addresses like SU-JOBS-ONLY: CSLI, Glacier (USENET feed for Stanford), Helens, LOTS-A, SAIL, Score, Sierra, SUMEX-AIM, Sushi These sites don't support the split bboards and are receiving messages for ALL of the bboards at LOCAL-BBOARD-ONLY: Sprite, Carmel, Cascade, Coyote, Diablo (aka AIMVAX), Gregorio, ISL, Navajo, Pescadero, Psych, Whitney I suspect that many of the sites in the second list are receiving all of the new bboards as USENET newsgroups. If I can remove any of them from our distribution lists, please let me know. Shasta's local-bboard-only address had been redirected to /dev/null, so it's been removed from the lists. -John -------

PDheader:1986-07-31 22:09:00-07:00 d58ed99edaf993a3a66d73b7fa43119c ∂31-Jul-86 2209 SIEGMAN@Sierra.Stanford.EDU bboard split Received: from SIERRA.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 31 Jul 86 22:09:06 PDT Date: Thu 31 Jul 86 22:10:39-PDT From: Tony Siegman <SIEGMAN@Sierra.Stanford.EDU> Subject: bboard split To: earnest@Sail.Stanford.EDU Message-ID: <12227239144.20.SIEGMAN@Sierra.Stanford.EDU>

To express my personal opinion (while recognizing the diversity of opinion on the subject), I think the division of bboards was unnecessary, a bad idea, and poorly implemented. It converted a "community", of sorts into a bunch of divided parts. It converted a simple, easy to remember, more or less permanent system into a complex set of hard-to-remember individual parts which will surely turn out to be transitory, requiring stillnewer changes and subdividsion to be learned. The messages explaining how to mail to the new system didn't explain how to READ the boards in a unified fashion, and the implementation on other systems was fairly chaotic (HELP messages not yet updated for example). -------

PDheader:1986-08-01 15:56:00-07:00 edc40afbf9acc8b6d4364773e909e52c ∂01-Aug-86 1556 LES re: bboard split To: SIEGMAN@SIERRA.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Thu 31 Jul 86 22:10:39-PDT.]

I disagree with your assessment of the bboard split. It was essential that it happen before the level of participation deteriorated to the point where only fanatics stayed "connected." The message traffic was simply too large for most people to review. It appears that less than half of the people in CSD regularly read SU-BBOARDS. I hope that the declining participation will now be reversed. The reason that no attempt was made to explain how to read the new bboards is that this function is system dependent. The various system administrators were given advance notice of the split and many of them told their users how to manage the new environment, but it appears that this was not handled well in all cases. HELP files are also a local issue. If you don't like what happened, talk to your local administrator. The "community" you refer to was, in fact, a random collection of individuals. If you thought that you were communicating with the Stanford community, you were suffering from a delusion. Of course, there is nothing to prevent the formation of new discussion groups at any time with whatever breadth of interests you like -- all it takes is a little leadership. Whenever you forget the names of the new bboards, just send a dummy message to SU-BBOARDS and it will be returned with a description of the six topical bboards. Les Earnest

PDheader:1986-08-04 21:15:00-07:00 405d14a3669be271cc79fdb4136d51bd ∂04-Aug-86 2115 LES No Adjustment Necessary To: su-etc@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU

Ross Casley says "I notice that SU-MARKET is not really the best place to ask for recommendations about shops or services" but does not justify this claim. While a number of people seem to be confused about this issue, SU-MARKET is exactly the right place to post such inquiries. I and others have been quietly requesting the senders of misdirected messages to take better aim. The learning process takes time, of course.

PDheader:1986-08-05 10:57:00-07:00 05800dd70413d419e6e303165c4d93da ∂05-Aug-86 1057 LES re: Adjustment not needed To: W.WROTH@LOTS-B [In reply to message sent Tue 5 Aug 86 06:43:19-PDT.]

The point is that people who are interested in consumer issues SHOULD read su-market. While it will be appropriate to consider reconfiguring the bboards at some future time, it would be silly to do so before the new scheme has been substantially tested. The current categories were not my choices, by the way, but were a consensus of views represented at a meeting last June. The categories are logically consistent and should be given a chance to work.

PDheader:1986-08-05 13:00:00-07:00 517cbacdf8353d2d8da502b7b77f0253 ∂05-Aug-86 1300 LES re: su-consumers To: su-etc@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU

[In reply to message sent 05 Aug 86 1028 PDT.] Let me see if I understand Ross's argument correctly. He says that requests for comments sent to SU-MARKET will reach too small an audience and that the solution is to subdivide SU-MARKET, creating a new bboard called SU-CONSUMERS. However, one of the advanced mathematical concepts that I learned as a small child was that if you break something in two, neither of the pieces is larger than the original. Have I missed something? As for Paul Asente's suggestion that messages be cross-posted on various bboards, please, please, PLEASE don't consider it -- that is the kind of garbage proliferation we were trying to avoid. Some people seem to have trouble accepting the idea that there are a number of interest communities and that not everyone is interested in reading everything they have to say. If they persist in trying to recapture the entire audience, that audience will melt away even more than it has already. While the current classified bboards are not perfect, they appear workable. I recommend that they be used long enough for people to get used to them before further changes are proposed. People who can't remember the various bboards and are on a machine without a suitable HELP file, can simply send a dummy message to SU-BBOARDS. The mail scolder will then return it with a description of the various bboards attached. Incidentally, this discussion should have been held on SU-COMPUTERS, but I expect we'll survive the inconsistency. Les Earnest

PDheader:1986-08-07 10:41:00-07:00 f03d43093df7e5f1630868a3f7af52a5 ∂07-Aug-86 1041 RTC Recommendations

Jeff Finger asked me if I would be willing to be moderator for a moderated bboard for recommendation-type messages. I said I would. He said I should tell you about it. Ross

PDheader:1986-08-07 14:47:00-07:00 130b0c4667aea62974d004073f6844d1 ∂07-Aug-86 1447 jfinger@diablo.stanford.edu Moderated BBoard Message Received: from DIABLO.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 7 Aug 86 14:47:10 PDT Received: by diablo.stanford.edu with Sendmail; Thu, 7 Aug 86 14:48:00 pdt Date: Thu 7 Aug 86 14:47:57-PDT From: Jeff Finger <JFINGER@AIMVAX.STANFORD.EDU> Subject: Moderated BBoard Message To: les@SU-AI.ARPA, rtc@SU-AI.ARPA Message-Id: <VAX-MM(187)+TOPSLIB(118) 7-Aug-86 14:47:57.AIMVAX.STANFORD.EDU> Phone: (415) 852-9177 (h), (415) 723-1809 (o)

This is the first draft of the message I will post to SU-ETC (or is it SU-CUMPUTERS). Suggestions? Corrections? Objections? -- Jeff -- ======================================================================= A Suggestion for Using Moderated Bulletin Boards for SERVICE and YUMYUM ======================================================================= SERVIC[P,DOC] is a wonderful file of testimony of satisfied and unsatisfied customers of various local concerns, such as car repair shops, optometrists, dentists, and the like. YUMYUM is a similar file for testimonials on Restaurants. Both files are very helpful; both are on SAIL. Their being on SAIL presents problems of both write-access and read-access to most of our community. I propose that moderated bulletin boards SU-SERVICE and SU-YUMYUM would serve the entire SU-BBOARD community via the following mechanism: (1) Additions may be posted to SU-SERVICE or SU-YUMYUM, but are automatically forwarded to the moderator rather than being posted. (2) The moderator makes sure the "SUBJECT:" headings for various topics are uniform so that MM (TOPS20) users and "rn" (UNIX) users can find the appropriate postings quickly. SAIL people continue to see messages sorted to the appropriate logical page. The "SUBJECT:" headings should contain at least the same string as the SAIL logical page headings. They might also contain subheadings, for example: SUBJECT: Indian Restaurants: Sheikhs would be an entry on Sheikhs Restaurant on the SAIL page, i.e., the general topics of Indian Restaurants. (3) The moderator then post the message to SU-SERVICE and SU-YUMYUM (he/she is the only person who physically posts anything on the bboard). (4) Ross Casley has volunteered to be the moderator for SU-SERVICE and Les Earnest has volunteered to be the moderator for SU-YUMYUM. Comments/Bugs? -- Jeff Finger -- -------

PDheader:1986-08-07 18:12:00-07:00 bf5cb186327ac6c15e7edfbad5a66563 ∂07-Aug-86 1812 RTC Re: BBoards To: JJW@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU, LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU,

ME@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU, DON@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU I volunteer to automate purging bboards, so that it can be done at a convenient time by a batch job. My idea is to do this: I will write a program (actually, I will hack BBPRGE) so that it simply deletes any page which has had no activity for 2 weeks. Pages 1 and 2 will never be deleted, though. A page's currency would be determined by checking the dates used on message headers. I would make it smart enough to retain pages with current messages even if no-one used the editor αXNDBB command. There would no longer be a list of pages to be purged - if someone wants a page kept he or she can still NDBB that page to keep it current. Comments or suggestions are welcome. I will propose this on SU-COMPUTERS after fixing any problems you tell me about and before doing anything more. Ross.

PDheader:1986-08-07 20:19:00-07:00 7f061df6e4b258171172704d541c5a98 ∂07-Aug-86 2019 LES Database sharing To: jfinger@DIABLO.STANFORD.EDU, RTC@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU,

JJW@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU, ME@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU, DON@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU, kolkowtiz@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU [In response to Jeff Finger's message of Thu 7 Aug 86 14:47:57-PDT] I like the general objectives of Jeff's proposal. In fact, I was headed in the same general direction with my (still incomplete) series of messages on a proposed "Stanford Information Network." Upon further reflection, however, I am afraid that this specific scheme doesn't quite work. Moderated bboards provide better control over bboard structure than the free-for-all variety but they effectively provide only one of the the three important update functions: new material can be INSERTed in the various replicas but there is no way to DELETE or REPLACE material that has become obsolete. It appears to me that the only currently practical way to maintain structured data files such as SERVICE and YUMYUM on multiple machines is to do periodic batch updates followed by full file copying to all sites. It might also be necessary to do some local reformatting on certain systems to achieve compatibility with whatever perusing software they have. It appears that most local Unix sites will soon be able to share files among themselves using NFS, which would reduce the file transfer load imposed by the batch-update scheme. In the longer run, one would expect that distributed system creators will concoct better solutions to this problem, but I would rather not hold my breath. Can anyone think of a better way? Les

PDheader:1986-08-07 22:26:00-07:00 2dc946e12a3ae85c54b1b3199c922a5e ∂07-Aug-86 2226 JJW Re: SERVICE and YUMYUM To: jfinger@DIABLO.STANFORD.EDU, LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU,

RTC@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU, ME@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU, DON@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU My two cents' worth: I agree that the information in the SERVIC and YUMYUM files should be made more accessible and easier to update. But I think a new mechanism is called for, different from either the current system or a BBoard. I don't like a file because there's no easy way to maintain read/write access across multiple systems. I don't like a BBoard since as we have them now, they are too unstructured and tend to hold messages of limited time-value. (Of course our definition of "BBoard" may differ.) The current split into restaurants and "everything else" is artificial. SERVIC[P,DOC] has grown almost to the size of YUMYUM[P,DOC], and some categories might make it into the same league as restaurants if more people knew about and contributed to the reviews. The whole topic of reviewing products and services is quite suited to a hierarchical structure, and restaurants could be a high-level category along with doctors, auto repair, etc. Dan and Les and I talked about this a bit this afternoon, and we mentioned that Unix already has a good directory system in which to set up this hierarchy, and with NFS (coming soon to a Vax near you), all the Unix sites on campus could transparently share a single copy of the information. For WAITS and TOPS-20, someone could write a program to run daily or weekly that puts the data in a better format for those systems. (Probably E files for WAITS, one file for each category in the top level of the hierarchy, a page for each subcategory, and a "message" for the next level if there is one; similarly for TOPS-20 using MM headers.) To be more fancy, these programs could retrieve just the changed parts of the database each time. Input to such a system is a bit complicated. I envision people on various systems sending mail to a program on the master Unix system; each message would start with information to indicate where in the hierarchy it should go. The program could send a template to users who are unsure of the format. The above proposal requires a moderate amount of new software, so it probably won't get implemented soon. But I'd still like to stress my first point: I think a division into restaurants and everything else is not appropriate.

PDheader:1986-08-08 14:45:00-07:00 8f54cfc153a9c29a370a36bba6ee28a2 ∂08-Aug-86 1445 Woods.PA@Xerox.COM Re: BBoards Received: from XEROX.COM by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 8 Aug 86 14:45:03 PDT Received: from Riesling.ms by ArpaGateway.ms ; 08 AUG 86 14:43:09 PDT Date: 8 Aug 86 14:42:50 PDT (Friday) Subject: Re: BBoards In-reply-to: RTC's message of 07 Aug 86 18:12 PDT To: Ross Casley <RTC@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU> cc: JJW@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU, LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU, ME@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU,

DON@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU From: Don Woods <Woods.pa@Xerox.COM> Message-ID: <860808-144309-2317@Xerox> I'm a little nervous about deleting messages without warning. I sometimes note when a page is listed for purging and stash a copy of that page for permanent archiving. But I could learn to watch for such pages reaching the two-week age limit. It is definitely a good idea to modify the program so that it checks the content of the page for appended messages dated within the time limit, since people sometimes (often?) forget to use αXNDBB (or αZMERGE) to update the header line. Regarding the directory page: It's really not all that hard to create a new, valid directory page. I remember John Gilbert doing it once upon a time for one of the Course Evaluation Committee's programs. (I think that particular program took a file and sorted the pages based on their header lines, and built a new file with a still-valid directory.) All the information you need is right there on the old directory page; you can figure out the size of each page, copy the header-line text verbatim, and so forth. Pages that were not yet in the directory (i.e., recently-added pages) would be omitted from the new directory. The reason I'm concerned about the directory page is that I don't like Joe's solution. He's right that there's a problem with leaving the file with an invalid directory for even a short period. However, there are two problems with his method. (1) What happens if someone is reading the file and you try to replace the file with a new one? [Answer: If that person tries to modify the file after you've starting rewriting it, E dumps him out on his ear. Not friendly.] (2) His method leaves the file with NO pages in the directory; i.e., a 100-page file (not counting the directory page) would give you "Directory has been updated for 100 pages added to file." until someone gets around to editing the file for something. This would be very distracting. Anyhow, since writing directory pages really isn't all that hard, I suggest you simply do it. And do it all in ReadAlter mode to keep other prying fingers off the file while you're changing it. -- Don.

PDheader:1986-08-08 15:14:00-07:00 066379191b8c95623e781ea852384088 ∂08-Aug-86 1514 RTC Re: BBoards To: JJW@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU, LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU,

ME@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU, DON@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU You're right, Don. It isn't too hard to create a valid directory page during the purge, so I will do it. Joe and I talked about the problem which arises if someone tries to edit the file while you are rewriting it. The problem with updating the bboard in ReadAlter mode is that a system crash could leave the bboard in an unusable state. The safest solution would be to open the existing bboard in ReadAlter mode, but not change it; create a new file for the purged bboard; and delete the old bboard and rename the new file when everything is finished. I can't tell whether this is worth the extra trouble, though. That leaves the question of whether a purge page is necessary. Perhaps the best solution would be to arrange for bboards to be dumped, so that old messages could always be retreived. In fact, this may already be done on score, so there is really no need to do it at sail (although it would be more convenient).

PDheader:1986-10-08 22:18:00-07:00 51b8074ca7732975688992bee8f85dad ∂08-Oct-86 2218 LES re: meeting scheduling program. To: GOLDBERG@CSLI.STANFORD.EDU CC: SU-COMPUTERS@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Wed 8 Oct 86 16:19:27-PDT.]

Developing a scheduling agent is a very worthwhile objective, but it isn't easy. Needless to say, it wouldn't work unless individuals kept ALL their schedules in the computer, which would make it hard to make a commitment whenever one is away from a terminal. In order to do it right, the program would have to know about the length of time required to move between various locations, so you would not be scheduled to meet someone in San Jose five minutes after a meeting in San Francisco. Most people take priorities into account in their scheduling and are willing to drop or reschedule certain events if something more important arises. An adequate scheduling agent would have to reflect these priorities, which means that the user would have to keep it informed of such things. This means more work for the user. There are also some privacy issues to worry about, given that you probably don't want your scheduling agent to tell everything about your calendar to anyone who asks. I believe that there have been several runs at this problem in the past, but no notable successes. I may try it sometime if nobody else does it first. Les Earnest

PDheader:1986-10-08 22:18:01-07:00 98ac4aa710d2b55e38f9eea7218dc789 ∂08-Oct-86 2218 LES re: meeting scheduling program. To: GOLDBERG@CSLI.STANFORD.EDU CC: SU-COMPUTERS@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Wed 8 Oct 86 16:19:27-PDT.]

You choose the options: automatic transmission (~$450), cruise control and air conditioning (~$900). Developing a scheduling agent is a very worthwhile objective, but it isn't easy. Needless to say, it wouldn't work unless individuals kept ALL their schedules in the computer, which would make it hard to make a commitment whenever one is away from a terminal. In order to do it right, the program would have to know about the length of time required to move between various locations, so you would not be scheduled to meet someone in San Jose five minutes after a meeting in San Francisco. Price: $8995 + options Most people take priorities into account in their scheduling and are willing to drop or reschedule certain events if something more important arises. An adequate scheduling agent would have to reflect these priorities, which means that the user would have to keep it informed of such things. This means more work for the user. There are also some privacy issues to worry about, given that you probably don't want your scheduling agent to tell everything about your calendar to anyone who asks. I won the DL Medallion basic car, which has a manufacturers suggested retail price of $10,300. Any options will be extra -- the figures above are what I remember from a visit to a local dealer. If you haven't seen one, I found the car to be a solid road car with clean lines and plenty of interior room. It comes with a long list of standard equipment. I believe that there have been several runs at this problem in the past, but no notable successes. I may try it sometime if nobody else does it first. If interested, call me at: Les Earnest (day) (408) 729-6279 or (evenings) (415) 941-3984.

PDheader:1986-10-12 12:34:00-07:00 c051e28c06fec927f454d3b9e150a510 ∂12-Oct-86 1234 LES BBoard Guidelines To: CSD@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU, su-events@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU,

su-jobs@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU, su-market@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU, su-computers@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU, su-etc@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU Some people who were gone for the summer apparently find the new bboard structure a bit confusing -- there have been some messages sent to the wrong forum and a number of inappropriate postings to more than one bboard. This note reviews the guidelines for bboard postings. Stanford community bboards are organized in such a way that users can read just those topics that are of interest to them. Postings should be sent to the most appropriate bboard, as described below. With rare exceptions, messages should NOT be sent to more than one bboard (this message being an exception). CSD - remarks specifically for members of the Computer Science Department. Both academic and housekeeping issues are appropriate. SU-EVENTS - announcements of seminars, concerts and other events inside or outside Stanford. Ticket offers and requests go to MARKET. SU-JOBS - jobs wanted or offered, here or elsewhere; SU-MARKET - things for sale, "Where do I buy X?", comments and inquiries about merchants and service providers, "Who is a good dentist?", etc; SU-COMPUTERS - comments on computer services, "How do you do X on system Y?". Discussions about the bboard system belong here. No ads for computers -- they go to MARKET. SU-ETC - everything else. Please do NOT post here in addition to other bboards. Messages sent to SU-BBOARDS from a Stanford site are automatically returned to the sender with a description of topical bboards attached, so if you forget the bboard names just send a dummy message to SU-BBOARDS. SU-BBOARDS continues to be a valid posting address for messages from outside Stanford. Such messages are manually screened and forwarded to the appropriate topical bboard. Les Earnest

PDheader:1986-10-15 13:02:00-07:00 1829de05199fec785d96d1e583e9c606 ∂15-Oct-86 1302 LES re: LANCE WEIL FOR CONGRESS To: Crispin@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU CC: su-events@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Tue 14 Oct 86 18:39:46-PDT]

Regarding Mark's political ad followed by a suggestion that political ads are not permitted in this forum, I observe that it is no more against university policy to post this kind of advertisment than to post used car ads. Les Earnest Ross.

PDheader:1986-10-18 22:51:00-07:00 2244705d7b34a16603a3a809f29fc792 ∂18-Oct-86 2251 JJW Computing

No doubt you've seen all of the flames about undergraduate access to Sushi. A possible solution occurred to me: use the spare DEC-20, Truffle, instead of just running it idle as a "hot spares" machine. If spares were ever needed, Sushi or Truffle could be taken down in favor of Score; but most of the time we could make use of all of the machines. Also, we could have a shared file system like LOTS has (I think), if that's feasible; it might require some extra hardware and software changes.

PDheader:1986-10-28 17:19:00-08:00 9dc85c3236bc43c3bf43d6771d1e667c ∂28-Oct-86 1719 TEICH@Sushi.Stanford.EDU my message Received: from SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 28 Oct 86 17:19:24 PST Date: Tue 28 Oct 86 17:14:32-PST From: David Teich <TEICH@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> Subject: my message To: andy@Sushi.Stanford.EDU cc: les@Sail.Stanford.EDU, : ; Message-ID: <12250526975.31.TEICH@Sushi.Stanford.EDU>

Since the game is both an event occurence and a ride is a commodity, I feel justified in sending this msg to two bboards. There are people who only check one or the other. Since my message did fit both categories, I wished to be certain it reached both sets of parties. dat -------

PDheader:1986-10-29 11:01:00-08:00 ecbe53e3e01376d0033315a64cac8e56 ∂29-Oct-86 1101 REULING@Score.Stanford.EDU Colloquium list reminder Received: from SCORE.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 29 Oct 86 11:01:43 PST Date: Wed 29 Oct 86 10:58:12-PST From: John Reuling <Reuling@Score.Stanford.EDU> Subject: Colloquium list reminder To: Faculty@Score.Stanford.EDU cc: CSD@Score.Stanford.EDU Office: Margaret Jacks Hall 030c, Stanford; 415/725-5555 Message-ID: <12250720610.35.REULING@Score.Stanford.EDU>

This is a reminder about submitting and reading colloquium notices. Colloquium announcements are available on the SU-EVENTS bboard or su.events newsgroup on most CSD machines. If you wish to receive colloquium announcements as mail, send a note to LISTS@SCORE asking to be added to the Colloquium mailing list. To post a colloquium notice, send it to COLLOQ@SCORE. It will be redistributed to many bay area colloquium bulletin boards, including SU-EVENTS, as well as to personal mailboxes on the list. If you would like your CSD Colloquium notice to be included in the weekly CSD Colloquium Announcement, send it to SUBMIT-COLLOQ@SCORE. These messages are batched together and distributed to the COLLOQ@SCORE list; in addition, hard copies are sent out via US Mail to those on our physical colloq mailing list. These notices will also appear in the <CS.PUBLIC> files TODAY.TXT, WEEK.TXT, and TALKS.TXT, available on Score and Sushi and will be available to Sunrise Club members on Sierra. -John -------

PDheader:1986-11-01 16:47:00-08:00 8e3b9ae0360d89ec96566e8d071c4422 ∂01-Nov-86 1647 LES re: Korean finger arithmetic To: SOL@CSLI.STANFORD.EDU CC: su-etc@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Fri 31 Oct 86 22:01:34-PST.]

I used an abacus throughout college. Of course, this was long before the invention of electronic calculators. In fact, the first transistor was invented while I was in school. My colleagues all carried slide rules, but I was always digitally oriented. They could multiply and divide faster but I outran them on addition and subtraction and could multiply and divide faster than someone using pencil and paper. I also became proficient at square root on the abacus. I always felt that I had a psychological advantage during examinations -- the "click, click" sounds from my flying beads used to drive my neighbors up the wall. Les

PDheader:1986-11-01 20:25:00-08:00 bbbf214fea806fd88e5804b9cedada44 ∂01-Nov-86 2025 LES re: Abacus arithmetic To: SOL@CSLI.STANFORD.EDU CC: su-etc@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Sat 1 Nov 86 17:02:10-PST.]

Division on an abacus is quite similar to long division on paper and can be carried out as follows. 1. Remember (or write down) the divisor and enter the dividend in the abacus right-justified, leaving at least one empty column on the left. 2. Enter the first digit of the quotient in the leftmost column and make the appropriate subtractions from the dividend,leaving a partial remainder. Successive digits of the quotient then "chase" the diminishing remainder to the right, so that you are left with a quotient and final remainder, left- and right-justified respectively. Taking square roots on the abacus was apparently an unknown process to traditional abacus users. It can be carried out by a method that is similar to the one usually used on paper but that is a bit more mechanistic. 1. Enter the number in the abacus and mentally group pairs of digits working left and right from the (imaginary) decimal point. 2. Beginning with the leftmost group, subtract successive odd integers as long as the remainder stays positive. The number of successful subtractions is the first digit of the square root. 3. Moving to the right one group (two columns), take twice the partial root, append successive odd integers and subtract this series as long as possible. For example, if the first digit of the root is "3," one subtracts the series 61, 63, 65, . . . The number of successful subtractions gives the second digit of the root. 4. Repeat step 3 until one has enough digits in the root. The successive digits of the root are entered into the abacus left-to-right in the same way as for division and "chase" the partial remainder to the right. The basic reason that this square root procedure works is that the sum of N successive odd integers beginning with 1 is N squared. Your abacus simulation could be made more realistic on SAIL or some other computer that has both graphics and audio output, so that appropriate clicking sounds could be made. Another alternative would be to buy a REAL abacus, which would cost only slightly more than a calculator. I am reminded of an early newspaper account of a timesharing system that spuriously talked about "the clicking of countless transistors." They don't make them like they used to. Fortunately. Les Earnest

PDheader:1986-11-01 23:11:00-08:00 e61b60b103134cad5352cd0ee5c7f959 ∂01-Nov-86 2311 JMC re: Abacus arithmetic [In reply to message rcvd 01-Nov-86 20:25-PT.]

The newspaper was the Stanford Daily in a story about space war.

PDheader:1986-11-02 18:00:00-08:00 56e98a3c3ac585429dfabac1e181a1d5 ∂02-Nov-86 1800 LES re: cube roots via the abacus To: SOL@CSLI.STANFORD.EDU CC: su-etc@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Sun 2 Nov 86 16:52:21-PST.]

John McCarthy has reminded me that the quotation about "the clicking of countless transistors" came from a Stanford Daily article on Spacewar. The Japanese, being more parsimonious than the Chinese, usually provide just one bead on the top instead of two. The extra bead permits you to keep parity bits in your calculation. (:-) I am glad to hear that you can still buy an abacus for less than most calculators. The instruction booklets that come with them are usually as entertaining as the devices themselves, being slightly bizarre translations from some Far Eastern language. I note that there is a market niche open to the first person who develops a Common Lisp interpreter for an abacus. It would be no sillier than most PC versions. Les Earnest

PDheader:1986-11-02 22:11:00-08:00 34517db77fe01c2c624ba73ad0d7434e ∂02-Nov-86 2211 HEWETT@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA re: cube roots via the abacus Received: from SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 2 Nov 86 22:11:43 PST Date: Sun 2 Nov 86 22:11:28-PST From: Mike Hewett <HEWETT@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA> Subject: re: cube roots via the abacus To: LES@SU-AI.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>" of Sun 2 Nov 86 18:00:00-PST Message-ID: <12251891750.13.HEWETT@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>

Les, Can you give the algorithm for multiplying on an abacus? When I went to Thailand to get married, my wife's aunt gave me a fifty-year-old Chinese abacus. I am fascinated with it and use it a lot for things like checkbook balancing and keeping score while playing a game. My father-in-law showed me how to multiply once, but he doesn't speak English very well and I couldn't quite follow what he did. Thanks, Mike -------

PDheader:1986-11-02 23:42:00-08:00 3a2a57713905c65c0b9341543937f279 ∂02-Nov-86 2342 LES abacus multiplication To: HEWETT@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Sun 2 Nov 86 22:11:28-PST.]

Abacus multiplication is essentially the same as paper multiplication except that each time you multiply a digit from the multiplicand by one from the multiplier, you add that product to the partial sum in the abacus. You can multiply the digits of the two inputs in any order provided that you do all combinations and add your entries on the abacus shifted to the left in accordance with the positions of the two digits you are multiplying. If that is too vague a handwave, I can bring in an abacus and show you. Les

PDheader:1986-11-02 23:58:00-08:00 2920291c5fac92b1dd202b5dfb990477 ∂02-Nov-86 2358 LES U.S.A. is World Leader To: su-etc@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU

[The following statistics of unknown authenticity are from the San Jose Mercury News.] Last year, handguns killed: 8 people in Britain, 21 in Sweden 34 in Switzerland, 42 in West Germany, 48 in Japan, 52 in Canada, 58 in Israel, 10,728 in the United States.

PDheader:1986-11-02 23:58:01-08:00 14b40e6415bcbccc219c85c6bffb0972 ∂02-Nov-86 2358 LES U.S.A. is World Leader To: su-etc@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU

[The following statistics of unknown authenticity are from the San Jose Mercury News.] Ian Earnest Last year, handguns killed: 8 people in Britain, 21 in Sweden 34 in Switzerland, 42 in West Germany, 48 in Japan, 52 in Canada, 58 in Israel, 10,728 in the United States.

PDheader:1986-11-03 00:03:00-08:00 ae9f4aa0a8ccdce7c1801fc0a58d6fac ∂03-Nov-86 0003 HEWETT@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA Re: abacus multiplication Received: from SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 2 Nov 86 23:59:17 PST Date: Sun 2 Nov 86 23:59:01-PST From: Mike Hewett <HEWETT@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA> Subject: Re: abacus multiplication To: LES@SU-AI.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>" of Sun 2 Nov 86 23:42:00-PST Message-ID: <12251911331.13.HEWETT@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>

My father-in-law has some weird method where he keeps the multiplier on the left side of the abacus and the multiplicand on the right. But he starts out shifted to the right one decimal place. Then he does some multiplication, a little magic, and the answer comes out with the decimal point in the correct place. I just couldn't remember what the magic part was. Mike -------

PDheader:1986-11-21 11:55:00-08:00 ac0d301b63307f32583bea2b0b0b19ae ∂21-Nov-86 1155 DAVEM@Sushi.Stanford.EDU re: Where are there hot springs around here? Received: from SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 21 Nov 86 11:55:08 PST Date: Fri 21 Nov 86 11:53:16-PST From: Dave Mellinger <DAVEM@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> Subject: re: Where are there hot springs around here? To: LES@Sail.Stanford.EDU In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>" of Thu 20 Nov 86 23:52:00-PST Message-ID: <12256759947.8.DAVEM@Sushi.Stanford.EDU>

If you can find the hot springs book, can I borrow it long enough to copy it? I have the "Hot Springs of the Northwest" book, but it doesn't list very many non-commercial ones. Thanks in advance whether or not you find it. Dave -------

PDheader:1986-11-21 12:19:00-08:00 5539376224bd7fea3feb80702e52b6b4 ∂21-Nov-86 1219 ROBERTS@Sushi.Stanford.EDU re: Where are there hot springs around here? Received: from SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 21 Nov 86 12:19:21 PST Date: Fri 21 Nov 86 12:17:40-PST From: Paul Roberts <ROBERTS@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> Subject: re: Where are there hot springs around here? To: LES@Sail.Stanford.EDU In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>" of Thu 20 Nov 86 23:42:00-PST Message-ID: <12256764390.7.ROBERTS@Sushi.Stanford.EDU>

thanks Les - sound promising. the one i know is at sykes.... P -------

PDheader:1986-11-24 11:17:00-08:00 c7f32bab8509f8a75c4bbd333b80b773 ∂24-Nov-86 1117 DELANEY@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA ALL NEW BBOARDER'S PLEASE READ Received: from SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 24 Nov 86 11:17:06 PST Date: Mon 24 Nov 86 11:12:54-PST From: John R Delaney <DELANEY@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA> Subject: ALL NEW BBOARDER'S PLEASE READ To: su-etc@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA cc: delaney@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA Message-ID: <12257539032.46.DELANEY@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>

Please keep the following distinctions between bboards in mind: SU-JOBS@Score - jobs wanted or offered; SU-MARKET@Score - things for sale, "Where do I buy X?", comments on merchants and service providers, "Who is a good dentist?", etc; SU-EVENTS@Score - announcements of seminars, concerts and other events inside and outside Stanford; ticket offers and requests go to MARKET. SU-COMPUTERS@Score - comments on computer services, "How do you do X on system Y?"; no ads for computers -- they go to MARKET; CSD@Score - announcements specific to the Computer Science Department, complaints about coffee service in Jacks Hall, etc.; GSB@How - announcements specific to the Business School; BBOARD@Lear - announcements specific to LOTS; SU-ETC@Score - everything else. Lately, SU-ETC has been getting a lot of mail it should not! John -------

PDheader:1986-12-05 20:29:00-08:00 c100be2494d4cab466d3e68bdf372f61 ∂05-Dec-86 2029 LES Table Tennis in the Closet To: su-etc@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU

Remember the bboard claims last summer that "Table Tennis is the second largest sport?" The Gallup Poll has just released statistics on participation in various sports in the U.S. In order of decreasing participation (defined as "did it one or more times in the last 12 months") we have: 1. Swimming 43% 15. Motorboating 18% 2. Bicycling 35 16. Aerobics/dancercize 16 3. Fishing 33 17. Baseball 16 4. Jogging/Running 28 18. Weightlifting 16 5. Pool/Billiards 26 19. Table Tennis 15 6. Camping 25 20. Body building 14 7. Hiking 25 21. Hunting 14 8. Bowling 22 22. Frisbee 13 9. Softball 22 23. Golf 12 10. Weight training 21 24. Tennis 12 11. Calisthenics 20 25. Canoeing/rowing 11 12. Volleyball 20 26. Target shooting 11 13. Basketball 19 27. Roller Skating 10 14. Bicycle touring/racing 18 Yup, there is table tennis in 19th place, between weightlifting and body building. It is not clear why Gallup distinguishes between the latter two, or between bicycling (2nd) and bicycle touring and racing (14th). Notice that football isn't in the top 27 -- in fact, it is at about the 5% participation level along with horseback riding, raquetball, water skiing, snow skiing, badminton, soccor, sailing and ice skating. Gallup does not report on the most popular indoor sport, no doubt because of prudery. Les Earnest

PDheader:1986-12-10 15:01:00-08:00 c426250b111681d6423bee5da6640de1 ∂10-Dec-86 1501 BYRD@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA Emoticons =:-} Received: from SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 10 Dec 86 15:01:37 PST Date: Wed 10 Dec 86 14:50:32-PST From: Greg Byrd <BYRD@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA> Subject: Emoticons =:-} To: su-etc@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA Message-ID: <12261772954.93.BYRD@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>

The following are two lists of "emoticons" that I received in response to a recent query. I got a couple of requests for a comprehensive posting, so here goes... ------------------------------------------------------------ emoticon: n. a figure created with the symbols on a keyboard that is read with the head tilted to the left. Used to convey the spirit in which a line of text was typed. ************************************************************************ * * * Tilt your head slightly to the left to read the following emoticons. * * * ************************************************************************ :-) Humor :-) )-: Masking theatrical comments :<) For those with hairy lips :<)= For those with beards too :/) Not funny '-) Wink P-) Pirate ;-) Sardonic incredulity (@ @) You're kidding! :-" Pursing lips :-v Just another face (speaking) profiled from the side :-V Shout :-w Speak with forked tongue :-W Shout with forked tongue :-r Bleahhh (sticking tongue out) :-f :-p :-1 Smirks :-, <:-O Eeek! :-* Oooops (covering mouth with hand) :-T keeping a straight face (tight-lipped) :-D said with a smile :-P :-y :-o More versions of shouting :-O :-{ Count Dracula =|:-)= Uncle Sam 7:) Reagan :-# Censored :~i Smoking :~j (and smiling) :/i No smoking :-I It's something, but I don't know what.... :-x Kiss kiss :-> Alternate happy face :-( Unhappy :-c Real unhappy :-C Unbelieving (jaw dropped) :-< Forlorn :-B Drooling (or overbite) :-| Disgusted :-? Licking your lips <:>== A turkey emoticon :-) :-) :-) Loud guffaw :-J Tongue-in-cheek comments :*) Clowning around :-8 Talking out both sides of your mouth (:-) Msgs dealing with bicycle helmets @= Warning about nuclear war <:-) For dumb questions o= A burning candle for flames -= A doused candle to end a flame OO Headlights on msg :_) I used to be a boxer, but it really got my nose out of joint ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Awhile back, you may remember some discussion about "smiley face codes". Well, here are some new ones, culled from netnews (done@teklabs, rew@hao, ksf@security, msg@houxl, and futrelle@uiucdcs). [:|] submitter is a robot (or other appropriate AI project) :>) submitter has a big nose :<| submitter attends an Ivy League school :%)% submitter has acne =:-) submitter is a hosehead :-(*) submitter is getting sick of most recent netnews articles and is about to vomit :-)8 submitter is well dressed 8:-) submitter is a little girl :-)-{8 submitter is a big girl %-) submitter is cross-eyed #-) submitter partied all night :-* submitter just ate a sour pickle -:-) submitter sports a mohawk and admires Mr. T :-'| submitter has a cold :-)' submitter tends to drool ':-) submitter accidentally shaved off one of his eyebrows this morning 8:] submitter is a gorilla 0-) submitter wearing scuba mask P-) person submitting is getting fresh |-) submitter is falling asleep .-) submitter has one eye :=) submitter has two noses :-D submitter talks too much :-o submitter is shocked ←←← / \ | RIP | |←←←←←| submitter has recently died ------- -------

PDheader:1986-12-12 14:51:00-08:00 33a61e7027ec03d317aafacfdc25bee9 ∂12-Dec-86 1451 alfke@csvax.caltech.edu Any DTP stuff to drive a CompuGraphic 8400? Received: from SUN.COM by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 12 Dec 86 14:51:06 PST Received: from suntoo.sun.com (suntoo-bb.sun.com) by Sun.COM (3.2/SMI-3.2) id AA07686; Fri, 12 Dec 86 14:49:45 PST Received: from plaid.sun.com by suntoo.sun.com (3.2/SMI-3.2) id AA03474; Fri, 12 Dec 86 14:51:45 PST Received: from Sun.COM (arpa-dev) by plaid.sun.com (3.2/SMI-3.2) id AA08107; Fri, 12 Dec 86 14:41:24 PST Received: from csvax.caltech.edu by Sun.COM (3.2/SMI-3.2) id AA07485; Fri, 12 Dec 86 14:42:04 PST Received: by csvax.caltech.edu (5.31/1.2) id AA08022; Fri, 12 Dec 86 14:42:08 PST Message-Id: <8612122242.AA08022@csvax.caltech.edu> To: dtp%plaid@Sun.COM Subject: Any DTP stuff to drive a CompuGraphic 8400? Date: Fri, 12 Dec 86 14:41:56 -0800 From: J. Peter Alfke <alfke@csvax.caltech.edu>

Okay folks, After reading and half-heartedly drooling over the neat stuff that can be done with a Mac and LaserWriter, I'd like to see if anyone knows of any DTP software that can help me and my setup. The situation: I'm (co)editor-in-chief of the Caltech student newspaper, a weekly rag that comes out in a 12 x 17" (something like that) format. We have a Compugraphic MCS 10 composition system (custom circa-1980 microcomputer with custom software) and a CompuGraphic 8400 typesetter which produces pretty 1200-lines-per-inch output in a large variety of fonts. (Note that the 8400 is NOT a PostScript engine, more's the pity. It draws characters and rules.) The problem: The composition environment is WRETCHED. You have your 16x64 display, and all the special stuff is done by inserting funny codes like <FT3> (boldface), <PLS> (plus line space), et cetera, ad nauseum. What you see is nothing like what you get. We have no recourse but to print our articles in strips and go through the whole tedious messy hand-layout process. Desktop publishing has obviously come a long way. However, I have seen no DTP software on any machine which claims to be able to run an 8400 typesetter. Well, actually I have: CompuGraphic will sell us some really nifty stuff to replace our MCS10 with, if we but fork over $15,000. Hollow chuckle. Has anyone out there heard even the vaguest rumors about software that will drive the 8400? We have an AT in the office, but can get a Mac if we need to. Future generations of editors and production staff will be eternally grateful to the bearer of information ... --Peter Alfke alfke@csvax.caltech.edu PS: No, scrapping it and buying a LaserWriter is not an option. First, our pages are too big. Second, I don't feel LaserWriter output is clean enough for a real newspaper. Oh well.

PDheader:1986-12-15 13:58:00-08:00 2a59458a0ab4ea71e5cfbb73d7726df3 ∂15-Dec-86 1358 LES re: bboards To: TEICH@SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU CC: su-etc@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Sun 14 Dec 86 18:16:11-PST.]

Applying social pressure to get someone to stop polluting a bboard is not an unfair tactic, but it is usually about as effective as telling someone who is critical of the U.S. government to move to the Soviet Union. The su-xxx bboards are a cooperative undertaking that grew out of the old SAIL bboard. As an historical consequence, the distribution lists and policies are administered by a disorganized consortium of CS folks. Any group that wishes to may start another bboard family at any time, though it would be a good idea to use distinctive names. Some day it may be desirable to organize this stuff more formally, but why do it before it becomes necessary? Incidentally, any substantial discussion of bboard policies should be done on SU-COMPUTERS, in accordance with the existing policies. Les Earnest

PDheader:1986-12-27 14:51:00-08:00 0258ed757c9fa450e7f209e130081aff ∂27-Dec-86 1451 LES re: Death to Sushi To: bhayes@GLACIER.STANFORD.EDU CC: su-computers@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent to SU-ETC Fri, 26 Dec 86 14:34:21 pst.]

Dear Barry, First, all death threats to computers must be posted to SU-COMPUTERS, not SU-ETC. Second, inasmuch as your posting was received by Sushi, it now knows about you. You have only yourself to blame for the consequences. Les Earnest

PDheader:1987-01-21 22:17:00-08:00 02b4f678767fb77c5cb432a9dc7609c0 ∂21-Jan-87 2217 POSER@CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Re: Wayward Postings and Health Care Options Received: from CSLI.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 21 Jan 87 22:17:07 PST Date: Wed 21 Jan 87 21:57:47-PST From: Bill Poser <POSER@CSLI.STANFORD.EDU> Subject: Re: Wayward Postings and Health Care Options To: LES@SU-AI.ARPA cc: su-market@CSLI.STANFORD.EDU In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>" of Wed 21 Jan 87 20:55:00-PST In article <1364@dual.UUCP> paul@dual.UUCP (Baker) writes: >In article <769@crash.CTS.COM> scotto@crash.CTS.COM (Scott O'Connell) writes:

>>I agree with you here. My feelings are that a motorist going 55mph when the >>flow of traffic is 70+ is a hazard. What can we do about it? > >Easy, properly enforce the 55 MPH law, build fewer freeways at >tax-payers expense and get some decent rail services going. Actually, if 55 MPH were enforced as a *minimum* speed, it would be possible to save a great deal of money on freeway construction. Bridges are very expensive to construct compared with takeoff and landing ramps, so just skip the bridges, do a bit more earthwork, and put the billions of dollars saved into bike paths or other beneficial public works. A fringe benefit would be that this would weed out the slower drivers. :-) Les Earnest, Stanford

PDheader:1987-01-22 16:07:00-08:00 f0f5b21625a440f4c53a56fa7fe96288 ∂22-Jan-87 1607 LES re: Wayward Postings and Health Care Options To: POSER@CSLI.STANFORD.EDU, SU-MARKET@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Wed 21 Jan 87 21:57:47-PST.]

It appears that Bill Poser still has not bothered to read the guidelines for SU-bboard postings and does not intend to. They are posted below for his benefit and for anyone else who has trouble remembering the categories. Poser's question about the Diamond Center is clearly an inquiry about a merchant, as discussed there. I can understand why people make posting mistakes occasionally but do not understand why some of them respond to a request for care in posting with an arrogant insistence that that "black is white." If people persist in ignoring the guidelines, the bboards will degenerate and we will all lose. We are open to suggestions for restructuring the SU-bboards, though I believe that this should not be done very often. Alternatively, anyone who believes that they have a better approach is free to set up a competing bboard system. Suddenly, tonight, I find it gone. I guess someone or another finally got around to killing it, conincidentally, in the last day or so. Les Earnest, SU-bboards mediator You're really being a vindictive prick, Les. I hate to say that, because I think it's poor form to use nasty words to a fellow professional. But you did insult me first. SU-bboard Guidelines I kind of used to respect you, by the way. You're a USCF official, aren't you? Didn't you officiate at the '85 criterium? And you wrote some interestng stories about your experiences with the government. Postings should be sent to the most appropriate bboard, as described below. With rare exceptions, messages should NOT be sent to more than one In any event, it's hard to hold a grudge in this case. When others start flying off the handle, it really gives me pause to think over my own reactions. I guess all I can say is thank God you weren't my advisor, to which your correct response is thank God I wasn't your student. I take it this means I'm not going to be invited to the CSD Spring picnic? -Henry -------

PDheader:1987-01-22 16:34:00-08:00 892f1df0e9b004474faef5ab0e9035cd ∂22-Jan-87 1634 POSER@CSLI.STANFORD.EDU re: Wayward Postings and Health Care Options Received: from CSLI.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 22 Jan 87 16:33:52 PST Date: Thu 22 Jan 87 16:27:50-PST From: Bill Poser <POSER@CSLI.STANFORD.EDU> Subject: re: Wayward Postings and Health Care Options To: LES@SU-AI.ARPA cc: su-market@CSLI.STANFORD.EDU In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>" of Thu 22 Jan 87 16:07:00-PST

Thanks again for sharing you views. Les I have read the guidelines; it looks rather more like Les Earnest has not read the message to which he is responding, in which I quite explicitly explained why I considered SU-ETC to be more appropriate than SU-MARKET for the original message under discussion. He does not even attempt a reply to the arguments presented there. All that he says is that my message was an inquiry about a merchant and therefore should have gone into SU-MARKET. This adds nothing to the discussion, as in my previous message I had already indicated that I was aware that my message was an inquiry about a merchant but that I did not think that it was the sort that should go into SU-MARKET. I also explained why I thought that in borderline cases one should default to SU-ETC. If Mr. Earnest wants to clarify the guidelines, fine; I make every effort to send messages to the appropriate bboard. But he has no basis for the assertion that I have not read them. On the charge of arrogance, I do not understand why disagreeing with Mr. Earnest is arrogant, or why I should not be annoyed at the public and completely baseless charge that I regularly ignore the bboard guidelines. Bill Poser -------

PDheader:1987-01-22 16:44:00-08:00 3c221a40a1e726672143aa26f5699f37 ∂22-Jan-87 1644 LES re: Wayward Postings and Health Care Options To: POSER@CSLI.STANFORD.EDU, SU-MARKET@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Thu 22 Jan 87 16:27:50-PST.]

Thank you, Mr. Poser. I carefully read your earlier assertion that black is white. If you wish to discuss this further, please communicate with me directly. I do not believe that we are discussing a topic of general interest.

PDheader:1987-01-22 17:30:00-08:00 86f87b6094b73d105cd38e33e4eadec1 ∂22-Jan-87 1730 POSER@CSLI.STANFORD.EDU re: Wayward Postings and Health Care Options Received: from CSLI.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 22 Jan 87 17:30:00 PST Date: Thu 22 Jan 87 16:59:01-PST From: Bill Poser <POSER@CSLI.STANFORD.EDU> Subject: re: Wayward Postings and Health Care Options To: LES@SU-AI.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>" of Thu 22 Jan 87 16:44:00-PST

Les

PDheader:1987-01-22 20:17:00-08:00 127bd87a455e575a1077621fa5351f78 ∂22-Jan-87 2017 LES re: Wayward Postings and Health Care Options To: POSER@CSLI.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Thu 22 Jan 87 16:59:01-PST.]

I apologize for being snippy, but the entire exchange developed as a classic bboard "flame." I have witnessed this phenomenon hundreds of times, usually as a spectator, during my 18 years experience with bboards but I am still susceptible to getting sucked in. Flaming seems to happen only in very "hot" forums such as bboards, which are very public and permit one to respond quickly without waiting for blood pressure to subside. There are about 20 wayward postings a week on the SU-bboards currently. One of the most frequent and most annoying kinds are double postings, usually to SU-ETC and some other bboard. In nearly all cases I respond with a private message asking the poster to take more care. Having seen seven apparent mispostings in the last two days, including yours and another just before it on SU-ETC, I decided that it was time to ask for general cooperation. I tried to cover two issues with one message (a response to Gluck's question and a grumble about the problem) and believe that my first posting was fairly polite: "Mark Gluck and Bill Poser, like too many SU-bboard posters, send their market questions to SU-ETC instead of SU-MARKET where they belong. Please, folks, think a moment before you send it off." Note that I described the problem as a general one and did not single you out for admonishment, though you were named. I expected you and the others to understand and accept this advice. It did not occur to me (and still seems incredible) that anyone might think that an inquiry about a merchant's credit policies is not an inquiry about a merchant. Your lengthy response finished with the gratuitous advice that: "Perhaps Les Earnest should think before complaining." Now, with such a friendly response, is it surprising that I kicked back? Still, my reply did not name you as being arrogant, though that was a reasonable inference from the context. (I admit to knowing a lot about arrogance.) Based on this incident, I do plan to use a different procedure in the future. There appears to be a need to keep restating the guidelines on the bboards, but since many people do not take public criticism well, I will carefully avoid identifying transgressors unless the problem becomes acute. I guess that a generic message to all bboards about once every two months would be about right. Again, I apologize for not avoiding the confrontation. Les Earnest

PDheader:1987-01-23 15:57:00-08:00 56eb91cf1a0fc024d9101a6e50f2b74f ∂23-Jan-87 1557 POSER@CSLI.STANFORD.EDU re: Wayward Postings and Health Care Options Received: from CSLI.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 23 Jan 87 15:55:05 PST Date: Fri 23 Jan 87 15:55:17-PST From: Bill Poser <POSER@CSLI.STANFORD.EDU> Subject: re: Wayward Postings and Health Care Options To: LES@SU-AI.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>" of Thu 22 Jan 87 20:17:00-PST

-John ps: Once the final message is set up, I'd like to install the master copy on Score. Then we can have sites update their copies of the helpfile at the same time they update the distribution lists.

PDheader:1987-02-11 11:02:00-08:00 0758d899a236f7bdb8c02c335c0e893c ∂11-Feb-87 1102 REULING@Sushi.Stanford.EDU SU-bboard distribution Received: from SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 11 Feb 87 11:02:16 PST Date: 11 Feb 1987 09:35 PST (Wed) Message-ID: <REULING.12278230693.BABYL@SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU> From: John Reuling <REULING@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> To: Les Earnest <LES@Sail.Stanford.EDU> Cc: ME@Sail.Stanford.EDU Subject: SU-bboard distribution In-reply-to: Msg of 10 Feb 1987 21:29-PST from Les Earnest <LES at SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>

The three LOTS DEC-20s share a common file system, so mailing it to any one of LEAR, OTHELLO, or HAMLET makes it available to readers on all three systems. Last I checked, LOTS was not forwarding to any other sites; the bboards aren't available on PORTIA (8600) or Macbeth (SC-30M). One of the UNIX hosts on the distribution list forwards messages to all of the USENET hosts on the 'su' distribution list. I believe that that list can be obtained from Labrea. The one SRI host on the list handles redistribution for all SRI sites, and we could probably get that number by contacting POSTMASTER@STRIPE.SRI.COM. The best way to get the ultimate direct distribution would be to send a note to POSTMASTER at each of the sites receiving the bboard, asking whether that site redistributes to any other site. I would be willing to do this. I'd like to contact a few of the sites anyway, to see about getting rid of their old single bboards. -John

PDheader:1987-02-11 14:28:00-08:00 418a0fbcd723b40b95d1ed01b8dbff68 ∂11-Feb-87 1428 LES re: SU-bboard distribution To: REULING@SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent 11 Feb 1987 09:35 PST.]

The Labrea distribution goes to 11 sites, one of which (Kestrel) is off-campus. Thus we seem to be distributing more-or-less directly to 29 machines on-campus (17 on the main list, 2 more at LOTS, and 10 more on the Labrea list) and two off-campus (Kestrel and SRI-stripes). If you are interested in furthering the tree-search, please do so! Les

PDheader:1987-02-11 17:20:00-08:00 6bda2b206012131aaceee69db6624e0b ∂11-Feb-87 1720 LES Whither SU-bboards? To: su-computers@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU

SU-bboards are intended to function as a reader-written newspaper that is organized into sections according to topic. Users may look into whichever topics interest them and each article should appear in just one section. This is the first of several postings that review of some current operating problems and possible future development of this forum. Over the past 15 years, this forum has evolved from (1) a general discussion among a small number of people on a single computer (SAIL) to (2) a general discussion on multiple computers, mostly in Computer Science initially, to (3) categorized postings on 29 campus mainframes and two off-campus machines, with secondary distribution to an unknown number of additional systems. The volume of the discussion exceeded the capacities of many potential participants long ago and this problem will increase if we continue to allow unregulated growth. In the first part below, I review some current problems and possible fixes. Next is a look at practical limitations on the number of people a given bboard can serve. The third part assesses longer-range needs and possible evolutionary development of SU-bboards. The last part describes some email standards, services, and software that are needed to better serve the computer community at Stanford and elsewhere. Rather than posting all of this material at once, I will post in parts, leaving decent potshot intervals. Part 1. Piddling Problems and Possible Patches Some problems arose last summer when we changed from a single catchall bboard to the curent classified bboards, but there have been some accomodations both in software and in attitudes and the system seems to be working reasonably well now. I have no statistics, but have the impression from personal conversations that more people are now reading some of the bboards and very few people are reading all of them. In other words, the classification scheme seems to be useful, though it is obviously imperfect. The principal malfunctions and misuses that I see are reviewed below. Wayward Postings People post to the wrong bboard fairly often, most frequently to SU-ETC when it should have gone elsewhere. In some cases this appears to be the result of faulty recollections of the topic definitions, but more often it appears that the individual simply never bothered to review the guidelines -- he or she chose a bboard on an intuitive basis. When wayward postings occur, other monitors and I usually send back private messages calling attention to the error. Most people accept the guidance gracefully and are more careful in future postings. Inasmuch as there is a never-ending flow of new people using the bboards, however, the monitoring process never ends. Multiple Postings Posting to multiple bboards is contrary to the guidelines but it still happens a lot, most frequently involving SU-ETC and some other bboard. Many of the transgressors somehow "didn't know about that," but there are quite a few who seem to believe that what they have to say is so important that it should appear everywhere. Again, most people respond reasonably well to guidance -- there are few repeat offenders. There occasionally are topics that overlap two or more SU-bboards. In these few cases, it is reasonable for the author to post to one bboard and put a pointer on the other(s) (e.g. "For a discussion of foo bar, see my `baz' message on su-random"). It appears to be necessary to remind people periodically about which bboards exist and exactly what they cover. Also, some of the topic definitions get sharpened as we gain experience. I now plan to begin reposting the guidelines on SU-COMPUTERS periodically, say once a month, and to put pointers to these postings on other SU-bboards. Comments on this plan or any alternatives are invited. "Trash" Postings There are quite a few bboard postings that shouldn't be there, such as multiple copies of the same message on a given bboard, incomplete messages that resulted from careless use of mailing software and crazy messages that no one else could possibly be interested in. This happens on all bboards, but most often on SU-ETC. Of course, there are many postings that would be classified as "trash" by some people but not by others. This includes certain flames about earlier messages or their authors. Wherever the trash comes from, if the volume becomes too high, many readers will give up and stop participating. One practical way to reduce trash postings is to appoint a moderator or team of moderators to review all postings, release those that are appropriate to the bboard and return the rest to the senders with polite rejection messages. If done well, moderated bboards are much more interesting to read than the random stuff that otherwise appears, but the moderators must do more work and incur more wrath from would-be authors, and the contributions take longer to get posted. Considering the trash quotient on SU-ETC, I believe that we should seriously consider converting it to a moderated bboard. Alternatively, we could let it go to pot and start a new bboard for moderated discussions, assuming that we could find one or more suckers to take on the responsibility. Cultural Clashes One of the interesting things about SU-bboards is the diversity of informed opinions that exist among its participants. Many of the resulting conflicts cannot be resolved because of differences in cultural backgrounds, especially when religious issues are involved. Nevertheless, these clashes are often informative and help us to understand how the world functions (and malfunctions). There are also clashes produced by differences in campus cultures. For example, there is a style of bboard flaming that some would characterize as "egocentric juvenile" that became popular on the LOTS bboard long ago and is now appearing increasingly in the SU-bboard postings of LOTS users. Certain LOTSies recently began flaming at each other, then started to singe some of the older SU-bboarders. This clash and some similar earlier ones among the older SU-bboarders seem to benefit no one except, perhaps, the antagonists and a few bloodthirsty spectators -- "Yea, kick the S.O.B." For better or for worse, some people are entertained by these bashing contests. People who are not interested in reading such exchanges _can_ skip over them, though on some systems they must first read enough of each message to determine what it is about, which many find annoying. Other systems provide software aids for filtering out selected topics or authors automatically, but this forces the users to manage their personal filters and get rid of obsolete entries, lest they inadvertently miss something of interest. While a certain amount of this drivel is unavoidable, people who get sufficiently annoyed are likely to counterattack. Most flamers, no matter how dense or egocentric, will eventually adjust their behaviour to local standards given enough peer pressure. It remains to be seen whether the older SU-bboarders will adjust to the brash style of the LOTSies or will beat them up sufficiently to "round off their corners." Participation Privileges The SU-bboard policy has been to add any computers to its lists of participants whose administrators request it. The LOTS machines began receiving SU-BBOARDS about two years ago as a read-only service. LOTS posters who wanted to be heard usually sent thir messages to SU-BBOARDS on other machines. For awhile, only LOTSies with ethernet access privileges were able to send such mail, but this restriction was lifted well before SU-bboards were split. The LOTS machines were given a direct-posting capability to SU-bboards shortly after the split. If the more rambunctious LOTSies can keep their fingers under control, perhaps confining themselves to asking good questions, they might learn something. If they persist in trying to call attention to themselves then it may become necessary to truncate their privileges. It is technically feasible to cut off SU-bboard write privileges either on a site basis or on an individual basis. We would rather not have to impose such filtering but will not hesitate to use it if necessary. I believe that it is still too early to reach a conclusion about the current froth, however. I invite comments on any of the issues raised above. Please refrain from flaming about "censorship," though -- we bureaucrats call it "editing" and believe that it is often beneficial. Les Earnest, SU-bboards mediator

PDheader:1987-02-11 17:38:00-08:00 e8aafb3d7eaf84c6522f02e3d81801b1 ∂11-Feb-87 1738 LES Whither SU-bboards To: su-etc@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU, su-jobs@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU,

su-market@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU, su-events@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU Discussions of SU-bboard policies belong on SU-COMPUTERS, as specified in the guidelines and a number of contributors are correctly posting there. I am starting to post a series of reviews and prognostications on SU-COMPUTERS on the subject of "Whither SU-bboards." Les Earnest, SU-bboards mediator

PDheader:1987-02-11 18:50:00-08:00 577b2a0e6f9560b3b0ded5eb1ac64daa ∂11-Feb-87 1850 MANDEL@SRI-KL.ARPA A question about SU-BBoards Received: from SRI-KL.ARPA by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 11 Feb 87 18:50:32 PST Date: Wed 11 Feb 87 18:50:57-PST From: Thomas F. Mandel <MANDEL@SRI-KL.ARPA> Subject: A question about SU-BBoards To: les@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU cc: mandel@SRI-KL.ARPA Message-ID: <12278331794.8.MANDEL@SRI-KL.ARPA>

Hi Les, I just read with interest your summary of the status and problems with SU-ETC, and had a question. I gather that SU-ETC, and the other SU-BBoards, are distributed rather widely outside of the SU computer systems. Obviously, we can read and write to them from over at SRI -- which seems to be fine as I gather contributions from here are infrequent and rarely of the "juvenile flaming" nature that seems to be bothering some people these days. I also get the impression that distribution goes much beyond SRI too, as I recently received email from someone at amstrad.UUCP about something I posted in SU-COMPUTERS. This doesn't both me at all, but I am curious about the thinking underlying this wider distribution of SU-BBoards. No particular rush in answering me, as it is really a casual sort of question. (My reason for asking mainly has to do with my interesting in the continuing emergence of "World Net" and its assorted components.) Thanks, --Tom Mandel mandel@sri-kl.arpa mandel@well.UUCP -------

PDheader:1987-02-11 19:28:00-08:00 f0ca1a0713a38ce9ecc43220c1ec6376 ∂11-Feb-87 1928 tucker@rocky.stanford.edu Re: Whither SU-bboards? Received: from ROCKY by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 11 Feb 87 19:28:45 PST Received: by rocky.stanford.edu; Wed, 11 Feb 87 19:30:22 PST Date: Wed, 11 Feb 87 19:30:22 PST From: Andy Tucker <tucker@rocky.stanford.edu> To: LES@sail.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Whither SU-bboards? Newsgroups: su.computers In-Reply-To: <15883@glacier.STANFORD.EDU> Organization: Stanford University Computer Science Department Cc:

In article <15883@glacier.STANFORD.EDU> you write: >I have no statistics, but have the >impression from personal conversations that more people are now reading >some of the bboards and very few people are reading all of them. I read them all, and know several others who do, but it's not any harder to read 5 bboards than 1. Besides, ~80% of the messages seem to be on SU-ETC. >People post to the wrong bboard fairly often, most frequently to SU-ETC >when it should have gone elsewhere. In some cases this appears to be the >result of faulty recollections of the topic definitions, but more often it >appears that the individual simply never bothered to review the guidelines >-- he or she chose a bboard on an intuitive basis. I think the guidelines should be more explicit about where messages should go, or you should expect to see some wayward postings occasionally. For example, should questions about buying a computer go to SU-MARKET or SU-COMPUTERS? If SU-MARKET, what if they address specific characteristics of various computers? I think a lot of the wayward postings, especially those to SU-ETC, are the result of confusion over the guidelines. People will take a guess at the appropriate bboard, or post to SU-ETC since it's supposed to cover everything not covered by the other bboards. >Considering the trash quotient on SU-ETC, I believe that we should >seriously consider converting it to a moderated bboard. Alternatively, we >could let it go to pot and start a new bboard for moderated discussions, >assuming that we could find one or more suckers to take on the >responsibility. I've noticed that the moderated groups on the USENET tend to have much lower volume than their unmoderated counterparts, and with a few exceptions, are virtually worthless for getting useful information. Unless the moderator is motivated enough and has enough free time, a moderated bboard will die. I don't have a problem with a moderated SU-ETC as long as the old one sticks around. --Andy Received: from SRI-KL.ARPA by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 11 Feb 87 19:29:42 PST Date: Wed 11 Feb 87 19:29:59-PST From: Thomas F. Mandel <MANDEL@SRI-KL.ARPA> Subject: re: A question about SU-BBoards To: LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU cc: mandel@SRI-KL.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>" of Wed 11 Feb 87 19:21:00-PST Message-ID: <12278338898.14.MANDEL@SRI-KL.ARPA> Thanks for the answer, Les. I hope that we at SRI can continue to read *and* write in the future, as I enjoy and profit from discussions on SU-ETC and SU-COMPUTERS specifically, and hope that my occasional contributions are useful. One minor correction: I didn't mean amstrad.UUCP. What I heard from was someone on a UNIX machine down at AMD in the Valley. I just got the name of the machine wrong in my previous message. --Tom -------

PDheader:1987-02-12 19:52:00-08:00 e08c6e469a81eacb1511a9b93df764b0 ∂12-Feb-87 1952 LES re: Multiple BBoards, Usage, Moderation, and Censorship To: GCOLE@SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU, su-computers@SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message from GCOLE@Sushi.Stanford.EDU sent Thu 12 Feb 87 16:03:46-PST.]

George: I agree that unrestricted forums for discussion must be preserved. The question I was asking was whether SU-ETC should be one of them. I think that the answer is "Yes" for the forseeable future, but that moderated bboards are likely to play a more important role in future campus communications. Given that you "abhor censorship, tyranny, or individually imposed constraints on joint interests or property" and that you believe that "it is too easy for `moderation' by any individual or small group to devolve into that lower life-form, censorship," I trust that you don't read any newspapers or other edited periodicals. Yea, I agree, that kind of stuff could mess up your mind. Les

PDheader:1987-02-12 21:11:00-08:00 b6f2849b02c8d8dfcd7454e3bb3ba3a9 ∂12-Feb-87 2111 LES Wayward Flaming To: Pasternack@SRI-KL.ARPA, su-computers@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU

In a posting that was mis-sent to SU-ETC, Henry Pasternack of SRI says that "Les Earnest is wrong" and takes me to task for publicly grumbling about another wayward posting. For some reason he neglected to send me a copy of his thoughtful posting. The message that apparently provoked him was my response to an earlier announcement of an event that was mis-sent to SU-ETC, which contained the following footnote: "I know that SU-ETC is not meant for announcements, but in view of the recent discussion I think this one is appropriate." This appeared to me to be an argument that "since everyone else is ignoring the guidelines so can I." I felt that it was best not to leave that statement unchallenged. Mr. Pasternack makes the bold statement that "The bboard is nothing more or less than what we want it to be" but he neglects to identify who the "we" is in his statement -- I suspect that it is an editorial "we." He may discover that he has less control over the situation than he believes. Let me state that I am genuinely interested in arguments in favor of changing SU-bboard policies and will respond to a reasonable consensus -- indeed that is why I initiated a review of these policies yesterday on SU-COMPUTERS. Why on SU-COMPUTERS? Because it is a discussion about a computer service; also, that happens to be what the guidelines say. On the other hand, I do not respond favorably to statements of the form "I can do any damned thing I want," especially from someone who is a guest user of SU-bboards. One of the topics up for review is "Who should have access to SU-bboards?" A possible outcome at some future time may be that off-campus distribution will be terminated or that it may be made "read-only." This particular issue might not be decided by consensus -- there are potential legal problems if Stanford is seen to be offering services to some companies but not to others or if we offer outside services that compete in some way with commercial services. We are already being questioned about this by the administration. Let me also point out that while SU-bboards is not quite a democracy, it is also not a monopoly. Any Stanford person or group that wishes to set up a competing service is free to do so, modulo standard administrative controls. Les Earnest

PDheader:1987-02-13 00:18:00-08:00 b61e469de4a02daf3d1a579e15cff325 ∂13-Feb-87 0018 PASTERNACK@SRI-KL.ARPA Well, well, Mr. Earnest. Received: from SRI-KL.ARPA by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 13 Feb 87 00:11:47 PST Date: Fri 13 Feb 87 00:12:05-PST From: Henry Pasternack <PASTERNACK@SRI-KL.ARPA> Subject: Well, well, Mr. Earnest. To: su-computers@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU, les@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <12278652398.12.PASTERNACK@SRI-KL.ARPA>

May I call you Les, Mr. Earnest? It seems much more friendly, and is far easier to type. For starters, Les, I am surprised and disappointed by your reaction to my note. In particular, I take offense to your use of vulgar language in a personal communication. It was highly inappropriate, and I was most surprised by your choice of phrases. Now, on to the question of use of the bulletin board by contributors from outside Stanford. I assume you brought up this issue as a diversionary tactic intended to discredit me. I am, obviously, not a member of the Stanford community, although I spent five years and sixty thousand dollars there. Stanford owes me not a penny (although whether my education was worth the cost may be another issue for debate on SU-ETC). But I can hardly accept any criticism for partaking of a freely offered service, the use of your bulletin boards off-site. And I hasten to add that by this channel, Stanford receives the intellectual input of interested parties from outside the university, so that the benefit may be said to flow both ways. And thus, I must say that, in my opinion, bringing up the issue of outside participation was a second unprofessional maneuver. You have insultingly demanded of me why I did not send you a personal copy of my notice. I take it, Les, that you read the bulletin board regularly, being its moderator. There seemed little point in sending you a personal copy as well. The comment I made was polite, tactful, and in good humor. There was no danger that your personal reputation would be damaged, and I wished to make a public comment. In short, there was no need to send you a copy. And so, you have overreacted, taking my note far too personally, yet a third indictment of your volatile personality. Overestimation of power? Hardly. I can certainly be a bit pompous, Les, but I try to play the game fairly. It is my opinion that within the statement of the rules of the bboards (as I remember them; I have no copy available at the moment) the discussions you have deplored are more appropriately located at SU-ETC than at SU-COMPUTERS. The main rationale for this is that SU-COMPUTERS should be about computers. These discussions are hardly technical; they strike me as pertaining more to the sociology of group forums. The subject matter is broader than plain matters of administrative authority. And, quite simply, when I imagine myself as a reader of SU-COMPUTERS, I envision becoming irritated by these sorts of fuzzy flames. I'll have to hold off on a detailed argument, lacking the exact wording of the rules. Perhaps you'd oblige me by mailing me a copy. And I'll admit that now that we're becoming so specifically wrapped up in the issue of topic allocation, SU-COMPUTERS may indeed be the best location for this discussion. For as long as bboards have existed, I imagine people have despaired of the tendency for the conversation to move up to the meta-level of discussions about discussions. Some say that such discussion should be banned outright; maybe they have a point. I'll leave the issue alone. Heaven forbid if I should be the one to bring back another wave of the old meta-arguments. I hope that those who are following this discussion will have an opportunity to read this message. Frankly, Les, I am dismayed by your reaction. You are the one who is making the show of power. You are the one who is acting like a defensive child. On reflection, I see that I am making more of a fuss of this than I should. It's so hard to keep a perspective when I find myself treated, so unexpectedly, in such an uncivilized manner. I guess the difference between you and me, Les, is that although I may be a basket case, at least I know it and keep a good humor about it. Right, old chap? -Henry -------

PDheader:1987-02-13 00:45:00-08:00 3b90a8aeb897747d42e4b92886381834 ∂13-Feb-87 0045 PASTERNACK@SRI-KL.ARPA Regarding SAIL. Received: from SRI-KL.ARPA by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 13 Feb 87 00:45:03 PST Date: Fri 13 Feb 87 00:45:18-PST From: Henry Pasternack <PASTERNACK@SRI-KL.ARPA> Subject: Regarding SAIL. To: les@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <12278658443.11.PASTERNACK@SRI-KL.ARPA>

Bummer! I was hoping it was you, whereupon I was going to accuse you of being rather spiteful, to boot. But I wanted to make sure, first. You see, I received my SAIL account back in the spring of 1981, when I used to work at the Computer Science Department. After I graduated, the account lingered on, and I used it occasionally to check mail and such when I was over at Stanford. Didn't store any files, except for my login command file, and a mail address file. I mentioned to Len Bosack on a couple of occasions the continued existence of the account, and he just shrugged. Every once in a while I would receive messages that the account was due to be eradicated. Of course, I had no objection, insofar as the university hardly owes its alumni continuing computing privileges. And, believe me, I do enough computing as it is. But, again, my account lingered on. I don't recall sending any other market-related messages since the bboard split, so the implication that I regularly send market questions to SU-ETC rather than SU-MARKET is unjust. In any case, my message, which asked how it is that a place called the Diamond Center, whose ads I have seen, helps you "rebuild your credit", was not an offer to buy, sell, or trade, nor was it an inquiry about sources of goods or services or a request for recommendations. Hence, I did not consider it appropriate for SU-MARKET, as I understand the criteria. It happens that my message concerned a business, but that does not mean it should go to SU-MARKET. In general, my policy is to default to SU-ETC if a message is not clearly more appropriate for one of the specialized bboards. That policy seems to be fully in the spirit of the split. I do think about where I send my messages. Perhaps Les Earnest should think before complaining. -------

PDheader:1987-02-13 01:05:00-08:00 ec251f2713daee2db1565debd83395f3 ∂13-Feb-87 0105 LES re: Regarding SAIL. To: PASTERNACK@SRI-KL.ARPA [In reply to message sent Fri 13 Feb 87 00:45:18-PST.]

Actually, I was kidding -- if your SAIL account has been closed, I had nothing to do with it, though we do plan to close most such lingering accounts shortly because they are necessarily charged to departmental gift funds and are costing about $60k/year. We plan to provide limited Sushi accounts to CSD graduates for the forseeable future, however. I have liked many of your earlier postings, but admit to getting quite pissed at your recent remarks. If you were offended, I apologize, but my "vulgar language" accurately reflected my views. I guess I'll take one more shot at your public postings before turning in. Cheers, Les

PDheader:1987-02-13 01:25:00-08:00 39520af6682e26c6811ba1f544fb496e ∂13-Feb-87 0125 PASTERNACK@SRI-KL.ARPA re: Regarding SAIL. Received: from SRI-KL.ARPA by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 13 Feb 87 01:25:11 PST Date: Fri 13 Feb 87 01:25:41-PST From: Henry Pasternack <PASTERNACK@SRI-KL.ARPA> Subject: re: Regarding SAIL. To: LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>" of Fri 13 Feb 87 01:05:00-PST Message-ID: <12278665797.11.PASTERNACK@SRI-KL.ARPA>

I am glad that you have taken a friendlier stance. I was in the process of writing a note myself, when yours came in. In it I wrote that I had printed out the whole discussion on paper, so as to look at it more objectively. The animosity was starting to seem rather comical. Please take your retailiatory shots at my public response. I still stand behind it -- although to be honest I was being rather emotional myself. I am glad you have liked some of my postings. And I am sorry you have disagreed with me recently. Objectivity is hard to maintain when one is posting to a bulletin board. And it's hard to tell when one has said enough -- or too much. I stand behind my position on the use of the bulletin board. So- called meta-discussions are annoying, and frightfully hard to resist poking one's nose into. I think they are probably less obtrusive on SU-ETC which seems to me to be a better place for an emotional controversy than SU-COMPUTERS. Then again, this is plainly now turning into a computer usage discussion, which belongs on the latter bboard. As you point out correctly, the distinctions are blurry. Perhaps there should be an SU-BBOARD-USAGE. Who knows? I doubt everyone will ever be satisfied. The current system seems adequate. Maybe the only additional rule should be that "bboard-scolder" messages should never be made in public. With regard to the off-site usage question, I will continue to use the bboards under the assumption that outside contributions add spice to the goings-on. If resource allocations and legalities necessitate excluding the outsiders, I will gladly, but sadly, go my own way. Until then, I hope the bboard community will continue to treat outsiders with hospitality. You know, we fought to get a BBOARD-COMMENTS here at SRI. There are a great many people here who consider bulletin boards to be a waste of resources -- and perhaps rightfully so. When SU-ETC became available on our system, BBOARD-COMMENTS kind of collapsed, I'm sad to say. I think I have had quite enough of this discussion by now! Mr. Chicago will probably live without my guidance. I will therefore give you the benefit of the last word. Perhaps with some motivation I will be able to return to my story- writing, and leave SU-COMPUTERS to Mr. Crispin and his eternal defenses of the DEC-20. Les, it's been real. -Henry -------

PDheader:1987-02-13 01:43:00-08:00 a71f2beca0a87c4f70693bafa62a828b ∂13-Feb-87 0143 LES Public vs. Private To: Pasternack@SRI-KL.ARPA

I agree with your remarks about the uselessness and attractive danger of meta-discussions and generally try to follow rule that "bboard-scolder messages should never be made in public" -- when I or someone else does otherwise it almost always leads to trouble. Nevertheless, when people mispost and add notes to the effect that "I am posting this on the wrong bboard because <nonsensical explanation>," as has happened several times recently, I somehow can't comfortably leave it alone. -Les

PDheader:1987-02-13 02:20:00-08:00 106e2deda3c4e389c37c024ec03c2b0c ∂13-Feb-87 0220 LES My, my, Mr. Pasternack To: PASTERNACK@SRI-KL.ARPA CC: su-computers@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Fri 13 Feb 87 00:12:05-PST.]

Dear Henry: If you were really shocked by my "vulgar language in a personal communication" and think that it "was highly inappropriate," you have my permission to disclose that atrocious material to public scrutiny. In my earlier public response to your posting, I said: > For some reason he neglected to send me a copy of his thoughtful posting. In reply, you say: > You have insultingly demanded of me why I did not send you a personal > copy of my notice. Did I miss something? I agree with your remarks about the general uselessness of meta- discussions, but somehow find it difficult to avoid them. In the interest of fairness, I try to treat everyone in about the same way, but given that you feel that I have treated you in an "uncivilized manner," I apoligize. I will try to make it up to you by savaging someone else soon. Finally, you remark: > I guess the difference between you and me, Les, is that although I may be > a basket case, at least I know it and keep a good humor about it. Right, > old chap? Er, ah . . . perhaps yes much of the time, but not always. Les

PDheader:1987-02-13 08:54:00-08:00 1858131e7ca160ebc2fd381b6a5e2370 ∂13-Feb-87 0854 BRINK@Sushi.Stanford.EDU pasternack Received: from SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 13 Feb 87 08:53:56 PST Date: Fri 13 Feb 87 08:52:53-PST From: Ed Brink <brink@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> Subject: pasternack To: les@Sail.Stanford.EDU Message-ID: <12278747205.20.BRINK@Sushi.Stanford.EDU>

Henry is a notorious hipshot. Old LOTSers generally N his stuff as a matter of course. Don't let him buffalo you into doing something you wouldn't have done otherwise. ..Ed -------

PDheader:1987-02-13 12:35:00-08:00 6e49d2464b3010364a24c631128e2a4b ∂13-Feb-87 1235 jbn@glacier.stanford.edu The BBOARD problem Received: from GLACIER.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 13 Feb 87 12:35:17 PST Received: by glacier.stanford.edu; Fri, 13 Feb 87 12:35:50 PST Date: Fri, 13 Feb 87 12:35:50 PST From: John B. Nagle <jbn@glacier.stanford.edu> Subject: The BBOARD problem To: LES@sail.stanford.edu

Someone could get a good thesis out of this problem. It's hard, it's a legitimate problem, it has implications far beyond BBOARD, and there could be a commercial product downstream. John Nagle

PDheader:1987-02-13 13:13:00-08:00 973c819cd544abe23b3ef601dfc8fea3 ∂13-Feb-87 1313 SIEGMAN@Sierra.Stanford.EDU bboard idea Received: from SIERRA.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 13 Feb 87 13:11:44 PST Date: Fri 13 Feb 87 13:11:24-PST From: Tony Siegman <SIEGMAN@Sierra.Stanford.EDU> Subject: bboard idea To: les@Sail.Stanford.EDU Message-ID: <12278794267.21.SIEGMAN@Sierra.Stanford.EDU>

(off top of head). Readers of given bboard who are sufficiently annoyed by msgs from sender X can send an RTFX (Request to Filter "X") to some file or mail address (possibly in a standardized form, so following procedure can be automated). If: 1) Enough readers send RTFX msgs for X in a given period; AND 2) X has posted more than some specified number of msgs in same period then 3) All future msgs from X above N per month (where N = 2 or 3 maybe) ge automatically rejected, for next M months (where M= 2 or 3, maybe). Advantages: Offender must offend a LOT of people (say 5 or 10), AND have been a frequent and egregious offender; offender isn't censored entirely, just limited in extent of future offenses. Disadvantages: Maybe complext to set up and maintain; offender may sneak around barrier under other name. -------

PDheader:1987-02-13 13:25:00-08:00 89cb6d9636677844895572ee5eeb78d9 ∂13-Feb-87 1325 LES re: The BBOARD problem To: jbn@GLACIER.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Fri, 13 Feb 87 12:35:50 PST.]

I agree completely. I will put forth some more ideas shortly and hope that others will also make contributions. The hard part will be to interest enough students or muster the necessary staff programming effort to actually do it. Les Earnest

PDheader:1987-02-13 17:11:00-08:00 371ea8395e1e9d14e57d2854afe96529 ∂13-Feb-87 1711 jbn@glacier.stanford.edu re: The BBOARD problem Received: from GLACIER.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 13 Feb 87 17:10:37 PST Received: by glacier.stanford.edu; Fri, 13 Feb 87 17:11:16 PST Date: Fri, 13 Feb 87 17:11:16 PST From: John B. Nagle <jbn@glacier.stanford.edu> Subject: re: The BBOARD problem To: LES@sail.stanford.edu, jbn@glacier.stanford.edu

What I'm suggesting as a research topic is to develop a means of making an intragroup communications system self-organizing, in the sense that the collective decisions of the participants determine how the system operates. The challenge is to make it work without centralized administration. Consider, for example, the concept of "seconding". This is distributed moderation; only messages which have been "seconded" by a party other than the originator are made generally visible. One might set as one's own reading preference that only messages seconded by certain people are to be visible; this makes those people moderators with respect to you. Anyone could thus undertake to be a moderator; whether anyone is paying attention to their actions is a separate issue. Some moderators would attract a following, others wouldn't; ratings should be available. Commercial services might pay moderators who acquired a significant following a royalty, thus encouraging them to continue their work. (CompuServ does something like this now). I'm not proposing some minor hack on the existing software, but the development of a new concept in interpersonal communication. Perhaps CSLI would be an appropriate base for such an activity, although the MIT Media Lab is more into that sort of thing. John Nagle

PDheader:1987-02-13 18:56:00-08:00 25aa09da4a0a376ef70ee780aeed7df1 ∂13-Feb-87 1856 LES re: The BBOARD problem To: jbn@GLACIER.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Fri, 13 Feb 87 17:11:16 PST.]

Your ideas are interesting and quite similar to some I have been working on. I am going to post my next installment within the next couple of days. You might wish to post your ideas too. As for who should do the development work, that is quite open as far as I am concerned, but I think that it should be done at Stanford. It will take quite a lot of work to make the various incompatible computer systems here function correctly together. In fact, some of them will never make it. Les Earnest

PDheader:1987-02-13 19:52:00-08:00 7927272a341381215d6712d5d870ddf7 ∂13-Feb-87 1952 LES re: bboard idea To: SIEGMAN@SIERRA.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Fri 13 Feb 87 13:11:24-PST.]

It is appealing to try to find schemes that filter out the good stuff and reject the bad stuff semiautomatically, but the particular filtering idea that you propose strikes me as a bit random. As you know, there are already filtering features on several systems that permit readers to screen out messages from authors they don't like, or on subjects they abhor, but the use of these filters leads to another problem -- the rejected messages are often quoted or referred to in messages from other people and the reader ends up not quite understanding parts of the ongoing discussion. Also, the filters must be reviewed and purged periodically lest you end up screening out everything. There are some moderating schemes that are related to your idea that I think have a reasonable chance of working. I am still trying to write them up (between responses to flamers) and will try to post in a day or two. You might want to expose your ideas to the bboard community too.

PDheader:1987-02-13 21:35:00-08:00 c40f0922b715d23bef73d507e8b4c820 ∂13-Feb-87 2135 simoni@shasta.stanford.edu Re: Wayward Flaming Received: from SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 13 Feb 87 21:35:45 PST Received: by shasta.stanford.edu; Fri, 13 Feb 87 21:36:28 PST Date: Fri, 13 Feb 87 21:36:28 PST From: Richard Simoni <simoni@shasta.stanford.edu> To: LES@sail.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Wayward Flaming Newsgroups: su.computers In-Reply-To: <15996@glacier.STANFORD.EDU> Organization: Stanford University Cc:

In article <15996@glacier.STANFORD.EDU> you write: > >The message that apparently provoked him was my response to an earlier >announcement of an event that was mis-sent to SU-ETC, which contained >the following footnote: > "I know that SU-ETC is not meant for announcements, but > in view of the recent discussion I think this one is > appropriate." >This appeared to me to be an argument that "since everyone else is >ignoring the guidelines so can I." I think there may have been a misunderstanding regarding this footnote (originally posted by R.ROLAND, if memory serves). From the content of the messages, it seemed to me that Roland intended "recent discussion" to refer to the recent discussion about AIDS, while you thought "recent discussion" meant the recent discussion about posting to bboards. So I don't think Roland was making the argument you stated. BTW, I agree that, at most, he should have provided on su-etc a pointer to the announcement on su-events. Also, I agree with you that Henry Pasternack is in the wrong here. Rich Simoni

PDheader:1987-02-14 14:40:00-08:00 1503cfbc3f5f7b3752910d0a9b0db062 ∂14-Feb-87 1440 JJW BBoard suggestion

Maybe we could conduct a poll of BBoard readers, asking who reads which BBoards and at what frequency. A useful question this might answer is whether "pointers" on SU-ETC to messages on other BBoards would be useful. If SU-ETC readers already read most of the other BBoards (which I suspect is true), then such pointers are superfluous. Other useful facts might also appear if such a poll asks the right questions and correlations are computed.

PDheader:1987-02-14 15:10:00-08:00 9aa7da08b93aac813443d792617b2b98 ∂14-Feb-87 1510 LES re: BBoard suggestion To: JJW [In reply to message rcvd 14-Feb-87 14:40-PT.]

It certainly would be useful to have such information, but the size of the compilation task is frightening. Are you volunteering? If so, it might even be worthwhile to initially post an invitation to submit questions, with the understanding that *you* will decide which ones to include in the survey. The survey itself should probably be a structured form so that the answers can be found quickly. In fact, with an artificially intelligent program . . . Never mind.

PDheader:1987-02-15 16:48:00-08:00 c8bbdf867d1d9d48083a9fc11b661fe3 ∂15-Feb-87 1648 LES Bboard census & polls To: ME

I would like to do a census of the readership of the various SU-bboards but do not relish hand-counting the returns. It appears to me that there is an email scheme that could be automated fairly easily however. A description follows. Please look for bugs or easier solutions. Suppose that I sent a message to each bboard with distinctive but ficticious return addresses for each, saying something like "For census purposes, send an electronic mail reply to this message. The text of your message will not be read -- just your email address. Please do NOT post your reply to a bboard." You would have put the various ficticious names into the SAIL mail table so that each would be directed to a distinct file. I would write a program that would scan these files to look for sender duplications and report totals, both overall and by sending host. A slight variation of the same scheme could be used to take polls with multiple-choice questions, asking users to respond to the mailbox corresponding to their choice. In order to make the census version work, I need to be able to post messages with ficticious return addresses, such as "census-etc@sail." Is there a simple way to do that?

PDheader:1987-02-15 23:31:00-08:00 46d4deeb28f60663aae91a295a8c9275 ∂15-Feb-87 2331 isaacs@psych.stanford.edu Re: whither bboard and who makes decisions Received: from PSYCH.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 15 Feb 87 23:30:58 PST Received: by Psych.Stanford.EDU; Sun, 15 Feb 87 23:30:07 PST To: Les Earnest <LES@sail.stanford.edu> Cc: isaacs@psych.stanford.edu Subject: Re: whither bboard and who makes decisions In-Reply-To: Your message of 15 Feb 87 1443 PST. Date: 15 Feb 87 23:30:05 PST (Sun) From: isaacs@psych.stanford.edu

I'm sorry about misposting, but it does bring up a point I've been meaning to mention somewhere along the line. I read the bboard from the psych department, which hasn't split the bboards. So I can't tell which bboard a message comes from. (Strangely enough, even though I replied (small r) to jgray's message, it didn't cc itself to the bboard from which it came, and that's why I resent it myself, and guessed that it should go to su-etc.) There's been so much discussion about which bboard the discussion about bboards should be on that I couldn't tell what decision people had arrived at. Anyway, is there any way that the header of bboard messages could include a code that tells you what bboard it's on so that we non-split types could tell where to reply to? Thanks, and sorry about that. --Ellen

PDheader:1987-02-16 00:11:00-08:00 864ffa6a7438be7b48daec0b5bb411e7 ∂16-Feb-87 0011 LES re: whither bboard and who makes decisions To: isaacs@PSYCH.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent 15 Feb 87 23:30:05 PST.]

If you are using rn to read the bboards, then the r command is supposed to generate just electronic mail -- no bboard posting. The f command generates a followup posting to the bboard. Depending on how your bboards are set up, there might (should) be a "To:" field in the header that shows to which bboard each message had been sent. You might consider agitating for your system administrator to split the bboards on your machine. There is essentially no cost in doing this in Unix. Also, there should be an "apropo" reference to the su-bboard descriptions or a suitable "man" file containing the guidelines so that you don't have to guess. Les

PDheader:1987-02-16 14:40:00-08:00 a10becb72c8cb960aff52021c95ccd48 ∂16-Feb-87 1440 LES re: Whither SU-bboards? To: su-computers@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU

This is a summary of the main things that I have learned (and some things that I have not learned) from the first round of discussion of SU-bboard policies. I wish to thank the many people who have taken the time to share their ideas and opinions, both in public postings and private messages. GUIDELINES. Several people have mentioned that the SU-bboard guidelines are not accessible on their systems. We plan to distribute an updated version soon and will request that participating system administrators make this information available in online "Help" files or other accessible reference files. Individual readers may wish to call this problem to the attention of their system administrators CATEGORIES. There were several suggestions of the form "Topic X should be discussed on bboard Y instead of on Z," with the most common value for Y being "SU-ETC." I assume that most of these suggestions are from people who read a subset of the bboards, such as just SU-ETC, but are interested in a topic that occasionally appears on another bboard. It is clear that if we accepted the union of these suggestions, SU-ETC would look a lot more like SU-BBOARDS used to. I do not wish to argue that the the current categorization is perfect, but it represents a consensus that was reached in a meeting last summer and appears to be working. I am willing to consider fiddling with the definitions if there really are good reasons to do so, but so far I remain unconvinced. AMBIGUITIES. It is clear that there are ambiguities in the current categorizations. For example, consider someone who is seeking or offering a free service, such as a ride to somewhere. Should they post to SU-MARKET or SU-ETC? My opinion is that this is a market-related question, even though there might be no financial transaction, so it belongs on SU-MARKET. The guidelines say that offers to sell or buy computer products belong on SU-MARKET rather than SU-COMPUTERS, but what if someone is seeking or offering free products? My opinion is that if a private transaction is potentially involved it should go to SU-MARKET but if it is available only to university entities, it should go to SU-COMPUTERS. If you have read the guidelines and are still unsure, send it to the place that seems most logical to you and, if there is a close second choice, put a message there pointing to the other bboard. SPINOFFS. There were some suggestions that new bboards be formed. This is a possibility, but I am mildly resistant. I regard it as highly desirable that people be able to post messages without having to consult the guidelines every time. It is clear that the current five SU-bboards already tax some peoples memories. I have some ideas for making it easier to subdivide bboards without losing track and will discuss these in a subsequent posting. In the meantime, if substantial interest arises in further splitting, I would prefer to decide the question in a face-to-face roundtable discussion, as we did last time, rather on the bboards -- negotiations take too long in this medium and design by committee is absurd. ETIQUETTE. Steve Bjork suggests that bboard etiquette be added to the guidelines. I agree with this idea in principle, but would like to keep the guidelines as concise as possible. In a sense, rules of etiquette address two main issues: efficiency and politeness. It is clear that many bboarders (including me) have a lot to learn about politeness, but I am inclined to leave tutorials on this subject to Miss Manners and friends. On the other hand, things that directly affect bboard efficiency, including some flame retarding policies, would probably be helpful. APOLOGIES. In a private communication, John McCarthy makes the specific suggestion that we discourage messages apologizing for postings to the wrong bboard. Some people do this in the hope that it will forestall complaints, but this doesn't actually work -- readers normally do not see the apology until after they have read (and possibly grumbled about) the misposted message. The only value that an apology might have is to avoid misleading those who do not bother reading the guidelines and use the examples of others to figure out where to post. In a world where people are trying to follow the rules, even though they occasionally make mistakes, messages of apology for misposting serve no useful purpose. Instead of making public apologies, then, errant authors should simply grit their teeth and accept the deserved abuse. JMC points out that "if they wish to respond, they are clearly entitled to clutter the message file of whoever has complained with a long and fulsome apology." DRIVEL. There was some drivel in the responses to my "Whither SU-bboards" posting, especially from those defending the American Way against censorship. It is clear that none of these people had carefully read what I wrote, but that is entirely consistent with bboard traditions. For the record, let me state unequivocally that I support Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press, and Freedom of Electronic Mail, even though our Founding Fathers somehow failed to foresee the need for the latter freedom. I am unalterably opposed to censorship and support every person's inalienable right to make a damn fool of himself in public provided that I don't have to watch. In support of these beliefs, I have personally contributed thousands of dollars to the American Civil Liberties Union over the last 30 years and currently serve on the board of directors of the local chapter. MODERATION. It is still clear to me that, while unmoderated bboards are useful forums in some cases, moderated and edited bboards are also useful, especially for people with limited reading time. The key issue is information quality, not censorship. Thanks to those of you who understand this point and have shared ideas or expressed support either publicly or in private messages. Having moderated bboards will not lead to the extinction of unmoderated bboards. In fact, it would be rather straightforward to create bboards that can be read in either unmoderated or moderated modes, though to my knowledge there are no systems that have the necessary software to do this conveniently yet. I will discuss this idea in more depth in a later posting. Les Earnest, SU-bboards mediator

PDheader:1987-02-16 16:15:00-08:00 818c254e21b9aad1c732a227a8858ae4 ∂16-Feb-87 1615 ANDY@Sushi.Stanford.EDU bboard help files Received: from SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 16 Feb 87 16:15:24 PST Date: Mon 16 Feb 87 16:11:20-PST From: Andy Freeman <ANDY@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> Subject: bboard help files To: les@Sail.Stanford.EDU Message-ID: <12279613456.49.ANDY@Sushi.Stanford.EDU>

Why is su-* sent to machines that don't have the policy available in help files? I'd vote for cutting them off until the systems administrator sends a copy of the relevant section of the help file to you. The unix machines, since they use usenet, are a different matter, but they can be handled as a group. -andy -------

PDheader:1987-02-16 16:27:00-08:00 638cc3a8f25e5e429e72343c959deb5d ∂16-Feb-87 1627 LES re: bboard help files To: ANDY@SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Mon 16 Feb 87 16:11:20-PST.]

Interesting idea, but we have no way of knowing. Perhaps we should have an su-bboard-gripe address and advertise it so that readers can squeal on their system administrators. Les

PDheader:1987-02-17 09:45:00-08:00 b868deb706f2fcbbf536f81571a82441 ∂17-Feb-87 0945 asente@cascade.stanford.edu Re: Polling software Received: from CASCADE.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 17 Feb 87 09:45:34 PST Received: by cascade.stanford.edu; Tue, 17 Feb 87 09:47:30 PST Date: 17 Feb 1987 0947-PST (Tuesday) From: Paul Asente <asente@cascade.stanford.edu> To: Les Earnest <LES@sail.stanford.edu> Cc: Paul Asente <asente@cascade.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: Polling software In-Reply-To: Les Earnest <LES@sail.stanford.edu> / 16 Feb 87 2059 PST.

On Unix it's fairly easy to redirect all mail into a file. I then plan to use grep to extract the from lines and then sort to sort the file. A quick human scan should then suffice to remove duplicates. -paul P.S. Current results overwhelmingly favor the split...5-2! :-)

PDheader:1987-02-17 20:08:00-08:00 4285360b39e1bf5e86dfa546d3386b5b ∂17-Feb-87 2008 LES Whither SU-bboards, Part 2. To: su-computers@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU

[This is the second part of a series on SU-bboard policies and future development. I confess that my original plan to cover this material in four parts now appears to be unrealistic; I decline to say how many parts there will be. Before I forget, let me acknowledge that many people have contributed ideas or have influenced my thinking on these issues, particularly John McCarthy, John Reuling, and Joe Weening. They should not be blamed, however.] Part 2. Limitations on Information Quality, Volume, and Time Anyone who participates for awhile in online discussion groups becomes aware that having more participants is not always better. A bboard with just one contributor can be of wide interest if the writer is good enough -- newspapers call such a person a "columnist." It is also clear that a bboard open to contributions by everyone in the world would be useless to anyone without a great deal of sorting by topic and filtering or editing. Unmoderated bboards usually exhibit both more spontaneity and more "noise" than moderated bboards. The spontaneity is fun, but the noise tends to drive away users with limited reading time. It is worthwhile to consider "What is the optimum number of contributors on a given bboard?" Unfortunately, there is no simple answer. For any given reader, it depends on his current time pressure, the topic under discussion, and the qualities of the contributors -- principally their knowledge, diversity of viewpoints, intelligence, and loquatiousness. In my experience, the optimum is typically a few hundred contributors provided that not many of them say much. While our campus bboards were evolving, international discussion groups have formed around Arpanet, Usenet, Bitnet, CSnet, etc. They have grown enormously and subdivided into a bewildering array of topics, subtopics and sub-subtopics. Not all of these discussion groups use bboards -- many use direct electronic mail based on a centrally administered distribution lists. Sometimes these email discussion groups use automatic digestification (postings are accumulated over a period of time, usually one day, then mailed to the list as a single message, so as to reduce the email load). Many are edited by someone so as to improve the signal-to- noise ratio. There are far too many messages posted to the discussion groups on any given network for anyone to read. Usenet, which is available on many Unix systems, currently has bboards on 246 topics in eight broad categories. Topics range from mod.ai and mod.risks (moderated discussions of artificial intelligence and computer risks to society, respectively) through talk.bizarre and rec.nude (very immoderate discussions that are just what they sound like -- yes, that's nude recreation). Just one of the more voluminous national bboards would tax the capacity of a dedicated voyeur -- e.g. read an hour's worth of soc.singles on Usenet. Considering the enormous telephone bills that are generated in moving this material between computers around the world, a cynic might be tempted to guess that Usenet was invented by a company in the long distance telephone business. ;-) A Dark Secret For the benefit of those who believe that moderated bboards are a work of the Devil, I will now expose a dark secret -- on Sail, SU-bboards have always been moderated. A few volunteers systematically screen all postings, delete some of the trash, move mispostings to the correct bboards, send polite but firm messages to transgressors, and organize postings into coherent groups according to subtopic. Users also can see postings that have not been screened yet. Sail bboards are read with a change-detection program and a text editor. Users seem to appreciate the dynamic segmentation into mini-discussions -- it enables them to review the background on any given issue simply by scrolling the screen backwards. Readers rarely complain about the editing done by the moderators. Bboard software on other systems provides backward references and string search on the subject field to help users find prior discussions on a given topic, but these mechanisms work only to the extent that contributors rigidly adhere to naming conventions. In actuality, they often introduce completely new topics under old subject lines, or continue an old discussion under a new subject line, causing readers to get lost. The difference in these two approaches (Sail versus others) explains certain observable stylistic differences. For example, people posting from Unix systems often quote preceding discussions extensively so that readers will not have to face the uncertainty of backtracking. Sail users, on the other hand, often compose their postings as if their readers will have the context in front of them. These different assumptions sometimes lead to confusion or annoyance by readers in the different environments. It is clear to me that the Sail approach is superior to the others, but it would be silly to have dozens of moderators independently segmenting the bboards on each participating system -- the screening function should be done once for all. Unfortunately, this requires the development of some new communications standards. This will not be too difficult as long as we do not worry about the fact that we will have to continue dealing with the outside world in the old ways. I think that we should plunge ahead, but that is getting ahead of the story. Brave New World Most of the Stanford community is not yet connected to SUNet and many of those who _are_ connected do not have access to SU-bboards because of software barriers; e.g. the many Stanford bureaucrats who use Forsythe can't see what we are doing. Many people in this community who do not have bboard access will get it during the next decade. For example, it appears that there are currently very few political scientists online. Can you imagine what SU-ETC will look like when they all get keyboards? (Shudder!) In view of this, we must reexamine the question of whether SU-bboards can survive in their present form with all these people participating. I think not -- the volume alone would drive away all but full-time speed readers. What should we do then? There seems to be no point in simply subdividing topics as a way of getting smaller participation groups -- the national and international network discussion groups are covering that territory better than we could. I believe that a combination of better software tools and better utilization of the energies of participants can be used to carry out the functions of information compilation, sorting, selection, and refinement much more efficiently. Before examining in more detail how this might be done, I believe that it is important to formulate explicit goals. Les Earnest, SU-bboards mediator

PDheader:1987-02-20 07:21:00-08:00 1eb9f608ba2df71e57ea203d2f03cbbe ∂20-Feb-87 0721 BRINK@Sushi.Stanford.EDU re: more guidelines Received: from SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 20 Feb 87 07:21:29 PST Date: Fri 20 Feb 87 07:20:04-PST From: Ed Brink <brink@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> Subject: re: more guidelines To: les@Sail.Stanford.EDU Message-ID: <12280565318.8.BRINK@Sushi.Stanford.EDU>

I've heard recently somewhere else that corrections and apologies become non grata on EMAIL systems. I happen to disagree, and my first take is that I will be inhibited from using the system if I can't represent myself as one who really knew better. (The ego deliberately shows.) Or, as in two recent cases of mine, one who is not only not stupid but is truly sorry he sent a dumb message to all of CSMS! The only feedback I've gotten is from one reader who appreciated my apology and felt it took guts to say it. I didn't feel so, but he did. By the way, "embarrassing" has two r's... ..Ed -------

PDheader:1987-02-20 11:09:00-08:00 b9c81788da7511b24403061daa6b6a5e ∂20-Feb-87 1109 LES re: more guidelines To: brink@SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Fri 20 Feb 87 07:20:04-PST.]

If you are talking about a posting that you later see is quite stupid, then it is reasonable to send a correction (as mentioned in the proposed protocols) in order to avoid a serious misunderstanding. The thing that these guidelines are trying to avoid is taking people's time to read postings such as "Change `embarassing' to `embarrassing'." Such postings are of interest to no one other than, possibly, the author. The embarrassment that he suffers from his mistake is just, given that he neglected to check the message carefully. Les

PDheader:1987-02-20 15:03:00-08:00 2304a22e258c91ec696a6bf6dc638f28 ∂20-Feb-87 1503 LES re: comment on bboard guidelines... To: PALLAKOFF@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Fri 20 Feb 87 14:37:17-PST.]

The example you give of correcting a telephone number is clearly consistent with the proposed guidelines, so it fails to support your argument. The "no corrections" rule is intended to inhibit those with such fragile egos that they can't let a spelling error stand, even if the message is perfectly understandable. Les

PDheader:1987-02-20 15:16:00-08:00 014dec805ef37191d8e5f76396957d3e ∂20-Feb-87 1516 helen@Psych.Stanford.EDU Proposed Protocols Received: from PSYCH.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 20 Feb 87 15:16:17 PST Received: by Psych.Stanford.EDU; Fri, 20 Feb 87 15:16:50 PST Date: Fri, 20 Feb 87 15:16:50 PST From: Helen Cunningham <helen@Psych.Stanford.EDU> Subject: Proposed Protocols To: les@sail.stanford.edu Cc: helen@Psych.Stanford.EDU

Hi. Just wanted to give you my response to your suggested additions to the guidelines: ACCURACY - Yes. Except of course for opinions and conjectures, properly labeled. NO CORRECTIONS - Yes. NO APOLOGIES - Yes. PERSONAL MESSAGES - Maybe. A sharp interchange between personalities can be fun and instructive to read (and to write!). Personal interchanges do get quite dreary when they are long, however. I would support a size limit (say 30 lines max) or a requirement that responses be point-by-point. BE POLITE - No. I think you will find it impossible to attain agreement among the bboard community as to what is and is not "polite". Without consensus the guideline will be difficult to enforce. Some of the best satire and political invective can be of questionable "politeness". I think it is better to leave it to the individual su-etc reader to distinguish the cleverly insulting from the merely rude. I think peer pressure works fairly well when a particular contributor gets way out of line. But again, a size limit would help a lot. OVERLOOK MINOR ERRORS - Yes. In summary, if I were to pick a single change that would most improve the readability, informativeness, and enjoyableness of su-etc, I would say SIZE LIMIT. Thanks. -helen

PDheader:1987-02-20 17:42:00-08:00 5985ec794d0fa28e58227293b5cc4b4f ∂20-Feb-87 1742 BRINK@Sushi.Stanford.EDU re: more guidelines Received: from SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 20 Feb 87 17:42:00 PST Date: Fri 20 Feb 87 17:40:31-PST From: Ed Brink <brink@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> Subject: re: more guidelines To: LES@Sail.Stanford.EDU In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>" of Fri 20 Feb 87 11:09:00-PST Message-ID: <12280678266.14.BRINK@Sushi.Stanford.EDU>

At that level, of course, correction postings are absurd. Somewhere in between a decision has to be made, as you note; and I guess it is sensible to encourage restraint. ..Ed (no reply expected) -------

PDheader:1987-02-20 20:24:00-08:00 35adea97d86b2d31ff833cf6219236b6 ∂20-Feb-87 2024 MANDEL@SRI-KL.ARPA Re: Proposed Protocols Received: from SRI-KL.ARPA by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 20 Feb 87 20:23:56 PST Date: Fri 20 Feb 87 20:24:34-PST From: Thomas F. Mandel <MANDEL@SRI-KL.ARPA> Subject: Re: Proposed Protocols To: LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU cc: mandel@SRI-KL.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>" of Fri 20 Feb 87 00:15:00-PST Message-ID: <12280708131.9.MANDEL@SRI-KL.ARPA>

Nicely stated, Les. Looks fair and square to me... -------

PDheader:1987-02-21 16:11:00-08:00 c56b5ca76302d85054e0ba3306dc8a0c ∂21-Feb-87 1611 LES Thanks and a Grumble To: helen@PSYCH.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Fri, 20 Feb 87 15:16:50 PST.]

Thank you for your suggestions on SU-bboard guidelines. I agree with the idea that we should encourage conciseness. I note that your public posting on this matter should have gone to SU-COMPUTERS but was sent to SU-ETC. Several others then responded to your posting on the wrong bboard. Sigh. I don't understand your remarks about personal messages. The proposed protocols recommended responding to bboard postings with personal messages unless the writer believes that his message will be of interest to bboard readers. This rule should not inhibit personal exchanges on the bboard where the responder is trying to publicly refute a prior posting. You argue against requesting politeness on the grounds that it is a subjective concept and will be difficult to enforce. In fact, none of the proposed protocols is strictly enforceable. I think that we should request politeness notheless. The point is to get people to think about whether their posting meets their own standards of politeness. I have been known to overlook this myself. I do not see the point of trying to impose size limits on postings. While I agree that people should be asked to write concisely, the amount that needs to be said varies greatly with the topic. Long and tedious quibbles are self-defeating and will be ignored by nearly everyone, except perhaps the person who is under attack. SU-ETC - everything else. Please do NOT post here in addition to other bboards. Hmm. Perhaps we should adopt a guideline saying that any attack or refutation over 50 lines long deserves no response! The SU- prefix is meant to distinguish this Stanford-wide bboard from local bboards and is not meant to restrict the topics to University- connected issues.

PDheader:1987-02-21 16:31:00-08:00 8d0d83b1582c24219aaaf4f988743bcb ∂21-Feb-87 1631 YOUNG@Sushi.Stanford.EDU Re: Redundant Wayward Postings Received: from SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 21 Feb 87 16:31:28 PST Date: Sat 21 Feb 87 16:29:57-PST From: Michael Young <YOUNG@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> Subject: Re: Redundant Wayward Postings To: LES@Sail.Stanford.EDU cc: PLAMBECK@Sushi.Stanford.EDU, greep@Portia.Stanford.EDU In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>" of Sat 21 Feb 87 12:29:00-PST Quest: To Seek The Grail Research-Interests: Autoepistemic Default Possible Worlds Sports-Interests: Brockian Ultra-Cricket, Cheese-Straightening Header-Options: Too Many Message-ID: <12280927564.19.YOUNG@Sushi.Stanford.EDU>

Les, I replied not knowing which bboard I was sending to. In general, the way I read the bboard doesn't tell me which one I'm currently looking at. I usually pick it up from the content of the messages. Reading BBOARD is getting to be such a chore. I mean, I could spend 2 or 3 minutes thinking of the issues to present in my messages, and 150 or 20 minutes checking the spelling and grammar and determining which bboard to send to. Ah, the burdern of the socially responsible. Oh, and Les... your wayward posting note to the three of us was by far the most polite (least abusive) "corrective response" I've yet to receive. Thanks. -Michael -------

PDheader:1987-02-21 18:12:00-08:00 f3076b2786a1f6dfd9b8092d7a24c9ca ∂21-Feb-87 1812 LES Market Sort To: RTC

As we discussed, I have reorganized the contents of market[bb,doc] according to topics. To facilitate purging (as well as a traffic study that I am doing), multiple postings on a given topic have been broken into separate pages on a date boundary, namely 18-Feb. Let me know if you don't like any of the classifications. BTW, when it comes to purging, you might consider copying review pages with useful information into service[p,doc]. Perhaps you have been doing that all along.

PDheader:1987-02-21 23:00:00-08:00 31e08040a6b242920bba3ade85ea3dde ∂21-Feb-87 2300 helen@Psych.Stanford.EDU Re: Thanks and a Grumble Received: from PSYCH.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 21 Feb 87 22:56:04 PST Received: by Psych.Stanford.EDU; Sat, 21 Feb 87 22:56:24 PST Date: Sat, 21 Feb 87 22:56:24 PST From: Helen Cunningham <helen@Psych.Stanford.EDU> Subject: Re: Thanks and a Grumble To: LES@sail.stanford.edu, helen@psych.stanford.edu Cc: helen@Psych.Stanford.EDU

1. Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Sorry about sending the public posting to the wrong place... 2. As for enforceability, I was assuming you would do the same with these proposed guidelines as is done with posting on the wrong bboard. SU-EVENTS - announcements of seminars, concerts and other events inside or outside Stanford. Ticket offers and requests go to MARKET. 3. As to the other points you take issue with, well just wanted to give my two cents worth. SU-JOBS - jobs wanted or offered, here or elsewhere; 4. I suspect that my current "round" with Mark Crispin violates the proposed guidelines in one or more ways. For example, maybe no one is interested. On the other hand, there may be others like me who find Crispin's style peculiarly entertaining. It's difficult to tell. Regards, helen

PDheader:1987-02-23 10:17:00-08:00 c1225228883d7c9167d3fe0d1ad323be ∂23-Feb-87 1017 reuling@rocky.stanford.edu su bboards survey Received: from ROCKY by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 23 Feb 87 10:17:23 PST Received: by rocky.stanford.edu; Mon, 23 Feb 87 10:19:09 PST Date: 23 Feb 1987 1019-PST (Monday) From: John Reuling <reuling@rocky.stanford.edu> To: les@sail.stanford.edu Cc: Subject: su bboards survey Office: 030C Margaret Jacks Hall, Stanford; 415/725-5555

I notice that you are conducting a mail survey to see how many people read the various su bboards. I don't know what percentage will respond, but I might be able to help your projections. If you can keep track of the numbers responding from each of the DEC 20's on campus, I can get you the actual numbers./ Almost everyone on the 20s will use the BBOARD program. That records read dates in a common file that is invisible to most users. There is a program that can read that file & generate statistics. I can run it for you on any SU DEC-20 besides WHY and TINY. SU-MARKET - things for sale, "Where do I buy X?", comments and inquiries about merchants and service providers, "Who is a good dentist?", etc; -John SU-COMPUTERS - comments on computer services, "How do you do X on system Y?". Discussions about the bboard system belong here. No ads or market inquiries about computers -- they go to SU-MARKET.

PDheader:1987-02-23 14:30:00-08:00 421fe3ec31ae3ca4b01ae00870aa252c ∂23-Feb-87 1430 REULING@Sushi.Stanford.EDU SU-bboard Guidelines Received: from SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 23 Feb 87 14:30:46 PST Date: 23 Feb 1987 14:20 PST (Mon) Message-ID: <REULING.12281428241.BABYL@SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU> From: John Reuling <REULING@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> To: Les Earnest <LES@Sail.Stanford.EDU> Subject: SU-bboard Guidelines In-reply-to: Msg of 16 Feb 1987 21:07-PST from Les Earnest <LES at SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>

Sounds fine. I had the SU-BBOARDS-MAINTAINER address on Navajo simply becaus that's where the scolder/filter for the old SU-BBOARDS address resides. We can use whatever aliases you think are best, and we should probably have the address be on Score as well, if only because that's where people are told the master distribution lists reside. I think it's a good idea to get rid of the old LOCAL-BBOARDS-ONLY addresses. If you agree, I'll send out warning messages to the appropriate sites. I agree that the topic is not of general interest. But when I am attacked publicly I feel compelled to reply publicly. If you think that I am claiming that "black is white" you are entitled to your opinion, but it would help those of us who do not hold the same opinion if you would explain it rather than simply repeat it. You seem to be making a mountain out of a molehill, and that is what I am responding to. Look back at what has happened. I sent one message that I sincerely believed to be more appropriate for SU-ETC than SU-MARKET. Perhaps I was wrong; it has happened before. In any case, as you (I think) wrote the guidelines you have presumably put more thought into them than anyone else and have a clearer idea of what they are intended to mean, so it is not surprising that you might have a different interpretation than I did. Instead of ignoring a single stray posting, or privately sending me a message explaining that you thought that my message should have gone to SU-MARKET and why, you sent a snippy public message accusing me of regularly ignoring the bboard guidelines. This accusation had no basis in fact, a point that you not since denied. In my reply I explained carefully my interpretation of the guidelines. Perhaps it is wrong or not the interpretation you intended when you wrote them. If so, you might simply have explained that, saying, for example, that anything that has anything to do with merchants, even if it might seem to be more in the nature of a request for general information, ought to go to SU-MARKET. Instead you baselessly accuse me of not having read the guidelines and of being arrogant for disagreeing with you and for being annoyed at a baseless public accusation. If you want to keep the bboards straight I have no quarrel with you, but making silly general charges on the basis of a single message and escalating to personal innuendo rather than discussing the point at issue will not help. Why are you so uptight about this? Bill -------

PDheader:1987-02-23 15:41:00-08:00 fc68ee79b22792a6950f1fa7bb7eda68 ∂23-Feb-87 1541 LES Estimated Apathy Rate To: ME@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU, Reuling@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU

John Reuling reports that the recent number of readers of SU-ETC has been 47 on Score and 123 on Sushi. Our census results for that bboard show 12 for Score and 37 for Sushi. Putting these together, we can estimate the apathy (non-response) rate at around 70% to 75%. John: I may have given you the wrong dates. The census began the night of Feb. 18 and is to finish at 6:00pm on Monday, March 2, so when you gather the final readership statistics, you might as well use Feb. 19 through Mar. 2. It also would be nice if we could also suck in the data from the LOTS machines, assuming that we get the mail path fixed soon.

PDheader:1987-02-23 16:44:00-08:00 42bfd8eaea3fd6aca35ca56884080524 ∂23-Feb-87 1644 @Score.Stanford.EDU:R.REULING@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU LOTS bboard info Received: from SCORE.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 23 Feb 87 16:44:39 PST Received: from LEAR.STANFORD.EDU by SCORE.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; Mon 23 Feb 87 16:43:10-PST Date: Mon 23 Feb 87 16:38:28-PST From: John Reuling <R.Reuling@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU> Subject: LOTS bboard info To: les%sail.stanford.edu@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU Office: Margaret Jacks Hall 030-C, Stanford; 415/725-5555 Message-ID: <12281453404.24.R.REULING@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU>

Here are the combined statistics for the LOTS machines so far... =========================================================================== Summary of BBoards since Thursday, February 19, 1987 12:00AM Report generated Monday, February 23, 1987 4:24PM =========================================================================== Number of readers Since Date Since Beginning BBoard Name ---------- --------------- ----------- 33 216 SU-COMPUTERS 47 279 SU-ETC 12 182 SU-EVENTS 28 237 SU-JOBS 44 279 SU-MARKET -------

PDheader:1987-02-24 12:13:00-08:00 a77948249ddc2843b5ea787f428dc545 ∂24-Feb-87 1213 Z.ZIMBABWE@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU re: SU-MARKET census Received: from LEAR.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 24 Feb 87 12:12:39 PST Date: Mon 23 Feb 87 23:39:16-PST From: Chicago Pizza <Z.ZIMBABWE@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU> Subject: re: SU-MARKET census To: LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>" of Mon 23 Feb 87 20:46:00-PST other accounts: z.zimbabwe@CHICAGO.EDU Message-ID: <12281530006.17.Z.ZIMBABWE@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU>

I haven't any idea what you are talking about. Perhaps if you were more clear on your allegation and less clear on your derogatory remarks, you might find a more receptive listener. -- Mr. Chicago -------

PDheader:1987-02-24 12:24:00-08:00 d96fd942b22283090096defd33e2fce3 ∂24-Feb-87 1224 LES re: SU-MARKET census To: Z.ZIMBABWE@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Mon 23 Feb 87 23:39:16-PST.]

I am referring both to that fact that you posted your response to the census request on the bboard instead of via email, as you were instructed to do, and that almost everything that you have posted on SU-bboards so far has consisted of nonsensical posturings that are of no interest to anyone but you. Les Earnest

PDheader:1987-02-24 14:06:00-08:00 b614c22953a216f5640d38e705ee9439 ∂24-Feb-87 1406 REULING@Sushi.Stanford.EDU SU BBOARDS at your site Received: from SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 24 Feb 87 14:06:29 PST Date: 24 Feb 1987 14:03 PST (Tue) Message-ID: <REULING.12281687416.BABYL@SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU> From: John Reuling <REULING@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> To: postmaster@Coyote.Stanford.EDU, postmaster@Gregorio.Stanford.EDU,

postmaster@ISL.Stanford.EDU postmaster@pescadero, postmaster@psych, postmaster@whitney Cc: Les Earnest <Les@λsailλ> Subject: SU BBOARDS at your site Your site is still receiving the five split SU BBOARDs as one big bboard, via the local address LOCAL-BBOARD-ONLY@<your site>. We are phasing out combined bboards of this sort in favor of separate bboards or newsgroups. All five of the SU BBOARDs are available as newsgroups on hosts receiving USENET messages. At the end of the month I will remove all enties of the form LOCAL-BBOARD-ONLY from the master distribution lists for the split SU BBOARDs. If you would like to have entries added for any or all of the split bboards at your site (e.g. LOCAL-ETC-ONLY@<your site>, LOCAL-JOBS-ONLY@<your site>), please send me a note. Note: If you REALLY want to keep receiving the bboards together, you'll have to create five separate aliases, one for each bboard, pointing to the same address. This is strongly discouraged. John Reuling

PDheader:1987-02-24 14:13:00-08:00 5948be407713314294d9a3d0b3c03a63 ∂24-Feb-87 1413 REULING@Sushi.Stanford.EDU SU BBOARDS at your site Received: from SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 24 Feb 87 14:12:46 PST Date: 24 Feb 1987 14:10 PST (Tue) Message-ID: <REULING.12281688622.BABYL@SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU> From: John Reuling <REULING@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> To: postmaster@Psych.Stanford.EDU, postmaster@Pescadero.Stanford.EDU,

postmaster@Whitney.Stanford.EDU Cc: Les Earnest <Les@Sail.Stanford.EDU> Subject: SU BBOARDS at your site Your site is still receiving the five split SU BBOARDs as one big bboard, via the local address LOCAL-BBOARD-ONLY@<your site>. We are phasing out combined bboards of this sort in favor of separate bboards or newsgroups. All five of the SU BBOARDs are available as newsgroups on hosts receiving USENET messages. At the end of the month I will remove all enties of the form LOCAL-BBOARD-ONLY from the master distribution lists for the split SU BBOARDs. If you would like to have entries added for any or all of the split bboards at your site (e.g. LOCAL-ETC-ONLY@<your site>, LOCAL-JOBS-ONLY@<your site>), please send me a note. Note: If you REALLY want to keep receiving the bboards together, you'll have to create five separate aliases, one for each bboard, pointing to the same address. This is strongly discouraged. John Reuling

PDheader:1987-02-24 16:02:00-08:00 04b4598be8214bfb0876bef5888396f9 ∂24-Feb-87 1602 ME How's this census re-request sound for LOTS? Date: 24 Feb 87 1600 PST To: SU-ETC@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU From: Census taker <SU-ETC-Census@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU> Subject: SU-ETC census Reply-to: SU-ETC-Census@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU

Because of a network addressing problem that prevented bboard-census replies from LOTS from getting through to SAIL last week, we are repeating the message below. Please reply to this message each time you see it on a different bboard. Our apologies for your having to reply again, because of the network problem. We wish to measure the readership of the various SU-bboards. For census purposes, please send one electronic mail reply to this message from each bboard on which you encounter it. The text of your response will not be read -- just your email address. Please do NOT post your reply to a bboard. Thank you. The census counting will end at 6:00pm on Monday, March 2, 1987. Les Earnest, SU-bboards mediator

PDheader:1987-02-24 23:41:00-08:00 9cfa35ea219154ee4c45913cd6ecd1ec ∂24-Feb-87 2341 DON SU-MARKET reorg

I haven't read the BBoards for over a week, so I missed the entire period for voting on the SU-MARKET restructuring. I don't really object to the change, but I do have a word of warning: The new structure is likely to screw up CKSUM occasionally. Consider the following scenario. There is at present only one message filed under "Miscellaneous". If no other messages are appended on that page, the automagic BBoard purger will eventually delete the page. Now, suppose a new miscellaneous message arrives after the page is gone. I run CKSUM and see the new message. Later, someone (possibly me, though I doubt it) moves the message to form a new "miscellaneous" page and--here's the catch--sticks a line at the top to identify it as such on the directory page. CKSUM is going to get very confused by the added line at the top, and will conclude that the entire page is new. So, the next time I run CKSUM, I'm forced to look at that page a second time. Indeed, when I ran CKSUM earlier tonight, I was told that every page from 3 on up in SU-MARKET was new. I haven't decided yet just how much of a hassle this might be, but you might want to consider ways to reduce it. -- Don.

PDheader:1987-02-24 23:42:00-08:00 6fb7f6a4025167332389549ea83092dd ∂24-Feb-87 2342 ILAN@Score.Stanford.EDU personal messages on bboard Received: from SCORE.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 24 Feb 87 23:42:45 PST Date: Tue 24 Feb 87 23:31:36-PST From: Ilan Vardi <ILAN@Score.Stanford.EDU> Subject: personal messages on bboard To: les@Sail.Stanford.EDU cc: ilan@Score.Stanford.EDU Message-ID: <12281790756.9.ILAN@Score.Stanford.EDU>

I am sending this question to you in reference to bboard etiquette, as you have been leading a discussion on it recently. As you may have noted, pasternack@sri sent a message to su-etc with a vague reference to personal relationships between him & me. The fact is that we had an argument 2 years ago and I haven't spoken to him since then. What is your opinion of him bringing this personal point to su-etc? I am sorry I feel that I am bringing this to you personally, however I did not want to bore su-etc with this, and I feel somewhat strongly that it is a form of harrassment. Yours truly, -Ilan -------

PDheader:1987-02-25 12:29:00-08:00 8bb293f6c624d3c30900f1dcfbdbfa70 ∂25-Feb-87 1229 Z.ZIMBABWE@HAMLET.STANFORD.EDU re: SU-MARKET census Received: from HAMLET.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 25 Feb 87 12:29:54 PST Date: Wed 25 Feb 87 12:23:24-PST From: Chicago Pizza <Z.ZIMBABWE@HAMLET.STANFORD.EDU> Subject: re: SU-MARKET census To: LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>" of Tue 24 Feb 87 12:24:00-PST other accounts: z.zimbabwe@CHICAGO.EDU Message-ID: <12281931256.215.Z.ZIMBABWE@HAMLET.STANFORD.EDU>

i am sorry that you do not seem to be able to find the method in my madness. but how can i stop instructing people on the benefits of life just because a few people cannot or refuse to understand my messages. -- Mr. Chicago -------

PDheader:1987-02-25 17:36:00-08:00 fcfd4ef8d0de96f4c17afc34c072744b ∂25-Feb-87 1736 LES Wasting time To: Z.ZIMBABWE@HAMLET.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Wed 25 Feb 87 12:23:24-PST.]

I don't think that anyone has trouble understanding your messages and your methods are quite transparent. What I am pointing out to you is that you are wasting people's time with blather. If it were interesting blather I would not object, nor would the several other people who have privately complained to me about your postings. The plain fact is that you do not seem to have anything to say, yet you keep saying it. There might be an appreciative audience for your childish scribbles on the LOTS bboard, but I doubt it. If you persist in cluttering SU-bboards, there will likely be a confrontation that you will not enjoy. Les Earnest

PDheader:1987-02-25 18:13:00-08:00 92f0dd1b6a3ef63f7db6f22ce6d36417 ∂25-Feb-87 1813 LES re: SU-MARKET reorg To: DON@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message rcvd 24-Feb-87 23:41-PT.]

After getting started on this idea, I did think about the problem you have outlined, but I haven't come up with a good solution. I am curious about what CKSUM would do if we retained old headlines and recycled them. For example, suppose there is just one page with a given headline and, when it comes time to purge that page, we have the purger delete everything except the top two lines on the page. Then subsequent postings on that page would be correctly handled by CKSUM. If the given topic has been broken in into two pages, then when the first (and presumably older) of the two pages is purged, its residual headline might be exchanged with the following page, so that it would be ready to accept new postings on the given topic. Unfortunately, I suspect that this would confuse CKSUM, though I confess that I don't know how it works. Still another possible hack (admittedly awful) would be to have CKSUM ignore the first two lines of each page. BTW, I am thinking of proposing a classification scheme for SU-COMPUTERS, with mini-bboards for each operating system, each language (programming and documentation) and some other technical topics such as networking, including "How to get to site X." Les

PDheader:1987-02-25 18:37:00-08:00 ee02c38d2990e827f84cfa56cbeddcea ∂25-Feb-87 1837 Z.ZIMBABWE@HAMLET.STANFORD.EDU Re: Wasting time Received: from HAMLET.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 25 Feb 87 18:37:23 PST Date: Wed 25 Feb 87 18:31:12-PST From: Chicago Pizza <Z.ZIMBABWE@HAMLET.STANFORD.EDU> Subject: Re: Wasting time To: LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>" of Wed 25 Feb 87 17:36:00-PST other accounts: z.zimbabwe@CHICAGO.EDU Message-ID: <12281998213.220.Z.ZIMBABWE@HAMLET.STANFORD.EDU>

YES, it's true, I do send "blather" to the LOTS BBOARD but I don't think you could call the recent stuff I sent to the SU-BBOARDS any worse than much of the drivel I find there already. If you are trying to do a clean-up operation, do not forget to send messages to the people on SU-BBOARDS that I use as role-models. Oh, by the way, you are a not very nice person. -- Mr. Chicago -------

PDheader:1987-03-06 12:50:00-08:00 b22d376bc2525c343ab0356fb4a18364 ∂06-Mar-87 1250 blumen%sim.Berkeley.EDU@BERKELEY.EDU FBI stories Received: from [128.32.132.4] by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 6 Mar 87 12:50:41 PST Received: by sim.Berkeley.EDU (5.57/1.16) id AA06818; Fri, 6 Mar 87 12:49:06 PST Date: Fri, 6 Mar 87 12:49:06 PST From: blumen%sim.Berkeley.EDU@berkeley.edu (Robert Blumen) Message-Id: <8703062049.AA06818@sim.Berkeley.EDU> To: les@Sail.Stanford.EDU Subject: FBI stories

Last year, I enjoyed very much reading a series of stories that you posted on bboard about your experiences getting a security clearance and tangling with the FBI. I have copies of "e-t-a-o-i-n Spy", "Kick the Mongrel" , and "The Missed Punch". Have there been any more since then? If there have, I would most appreciate your taking the trouble to mail me copies when you have time. I am a new graduate student in EECS at Berkeley, formerly at Stanford as an undergraduate and later, research assistant. Best wishes, Robert Blumen SU-bboard Guidelines SU-bboards are an electronic bulletin board system that interconnects dozens of computers and hundreds of users at Stanford. It is divided into topical bboards, as listed just below. A given message should go to JUST ONE of these bboards. In ambiguous cases, choose the closest fit and post a pointer message on your second choice, e.g "See my message about <subject> on SU-<bboard>." SU-MARKET - things for sale, "Where do I buy X?", comments on products, merchants and service providers, e.g. "Who is a good dentist?"; SU-JOBS - jobs wanted or offered; SU-EVENTS - announcements of seminars, concerts and other events inside and outside Stanford; ticket offers and requests go to SU-MARKET; SU-COMPUTERS - comments on computer services, "How do you do X on system Y?"; discussion of SU-bboards policies; no ads for computer products -- they go to SU-MARKET; SU-ETC - everything else. Some systems use different names for these bboards; e.g. names of the form su.xxxx are used on most Unix systems. Check local documentation or your system manager for reading and posting information. If your computer does not accept direct postings to these bboards, you can post via other computers such as Score, SAIL, or Sushi using electronic mail (e.g. send to su-market@Score.Stanford.EDU). SU-BBOARDS@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU is a valid address for messages from outside Stanford. Such messages will be manually screened and forwarded to the appropriate list. If there are local bboards that reach your intended audience, please use them instead of posting to SU-bboards. Here are some important ones: CSD@Score - Computer Science Department GSB@How - Graduate School of Business BBOARD@Lear - LOTS. Such postings are automatically forwarded to bboards of the same name on certain other machines within the same organization. Protocols In posting a message to one of these bboards, remember that it will be seen by a large number of people. In order to avoid wasting their time, please use the following guidelines. BE CONCISE. State your point, support it as needed, and stop. FORMAT your message with no more then 79 characters on a line -- otherwise it will disappear off the edge of the screen on some systems. BE ACCURATE. Check your message for accuracy and spelling before releasing it and be sure you send it to the right bboard. NO CORRECTIONS. Do not send corrections to postings unless there is likelihood of serious misunderstanding. Do not correct spelling errors but do feel embarrassed about them. If you posted to the wrong bboard, resend it to the correct one and be prepared to receive private complaints about the double posting. Accept them gracefully. NO APOLOGIES. If you make an error, do not post an apology. Deal with any resulting problems privately. In responding to postings by others, please do the following. USE PERSONAL MESSAGES unless you are reasonably sure that what you have to say will be of general interest to the bboard readers. BE POLITE even if the person you are responding to was not. If you feel upset, wait until the feeling passes. Reread the offending message to be sure that you are not misinterpreting it. If you feel that you must use strong language, do so only in personal mail, not on the bboard. OVERLOOK MINOR ERRORS. Remember that not everyone posting on the bboards is proficient in English and many can't spel wel. If you see a consistent mispelling and wish to help avoid future embarrassment, send a private message. If you: (a) receive a mailer error back from a message sent to one of the SU-bboards, (b) wish to call attention to an operating problem in these bboards, or (c) have comments on these guidelines, you may send a message to SU-BB@Score.Stanford.EDU. A copy of these guidelines will be reposted about once a month on SU-COMPUTERS and should be retained on each participating system in a "help" file.

PDheader:1987-03-10 18:02:00-08:00 435883162b8be73d375a783be19a6654 ∂10-Mar-87 1802 LES Whither SU-bboards, Part 3. To: su-computers@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU

Who Reads SU-bboards? It appears that about 938 people are currently reading one or more of the SU-bboards and that the average reader looks at 2.6 of these bboards, based on census reports collected during Feb. 18 - Mar. 2, 1987. Table 1 shows both reported readership (census response counts) and estimated readerships for the various bboards. The estimated values take into account an estimated response rate of 25.6%, as developed below. Table 1. Reported and Estimated Readership Readers of Bboard- 1 or more su- su- su- su- su- reader su-bbd. etc market comput. events jobs totals Reported 240 148 136 114 122 110 630 Estimated 938 578 532 446 477 430 2460 There were 630 responses received from 240 people on 37 host computers. About 10% of the responses were from non-Stanford hosts -- 23 people responded from 10 such machines. A tabulation of response counts by host is given in the appendix at the end of this report. There appear to be just three operating systems in use on the reporting hosts: TOPS-20, UNIX, and WAITS. Table 2 shows that reports were received from twice as many Unix as TOPS-20 hosts, but about three times as many readers reported from TOPS-20 systems as from Unix systems. Table 2. SU-bboard Census Reports by Host Operating System Operating System # of hosts # of readers # of reports TOPS-20 11 174 446 UNIX 22 53 146 WAITS 2 13 38 --- --- --- Totals 35 240 630 --------------------------------------------------- Bboard Combinations Let us now examine the readership of the bboards expressed as a percentage of the number of people who reported reading one or more bboards. The first row of Table 3 shows the readership of the individual bboards in this way. It can be seen that su-etc is the most popular (62% readership) but the values for the various bboards are remarkably even. Table 3. Readership of Bboard Combinations KEY: for various letter sequences shown below, this table lists the percentage of responders who read at least the combination of bboards corresponding to the letters, where: a = su-etc, b = su-market, c = su-computers, d = su-events, e = su-jobs. Combin- ation # 1: a=62% b=57% c=48% d=51% e=46% 2: ab=39% ac=35% bc=33% ad=38% bd=35% cd=34% ae=28% be=30% ce=25% de=29% 3: abc=28 abd=31 acd=29 bcd=27 abe=24 ace=20 bce=21 ade=23 bde=24 cde=20 4: abcd=24 abce=19 abde=21 acde=18 bcde=18 5: abcde=17 --------------------------------------------------- The row labelled "2" in Table 3 shows the readership of each pair of bboards. In similar fashion, the row labelled "3" shows the readership of each bboard triple, and so forth. Note that just 17% of the responders report reading all five SU-bboards (see "abcde" value), which means that at least 85% of the readers are saving time compared with reading the old unified SU-BBOARDS. The fact that the percentages step down consistently as the number of combinations increases suggests that the existing division is fairly efficient in the sense that if any pair of bboards were recombined into one, a substantial number of people would be inonvenienced. However, these data provide little information about the possible advantages of further bboard subdivisions. Response Rate Estimate One universal feature of human nature is that not everyone responds to survey requests. In order to get a good estimate of SU-bboard readership, we must account for such apathy by estimating the response rate -- the portion of those who were asked to respond who actually did so. We do so here by comparing _actual_ bboard readership on selected machines with census results from the same machines. Fortunately for our purposes (and unfortunately for individual privacy), the software used for reading bboards on both TOPS-20 and UNIX systems collects individual readership data, which can be summarized to provide the information we need. We chose to collect data compiled by the MM program from seven heavily-used TOPS-20 machines, as shown in Table 4. Note that over half of the reported readers of SU-bboards are on these hosts (331 of 630 census reports). Table 5. Response Rate for Selected TOPS-20 Hosts Each entry shows <# of census responses>/<actual # of readers>. Total su- su- su- su- su- su- Response Host etc market comput. events jobs bboards Rate, r CSLI 6/24 7/33 8/22 5/17 6/22 32/118 27.1% LOTS-20* 18/89 8/78 10/66 3/34 10/61 49/328 14.9 SCORE 13/48 12/44 13/42 12/39 14/32 64/205 31.2 SIERRA 8/13 7/15 5/8 5/12 4/9 29/57 50.9 SUSHI 38/142 34/109 28/106 30/116 27/113 157/586 26.8 ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ Totals 83/316 68/279 64/244 55/218 61/237 331/1294 r = 26.3% 24.4% 26.2% 25.2% 25.7% 25.6% I think that you are right about this being a classic flaming situation. It is easy to get carried away on bboards, or even in private electronic mail. For certain kinds of discussions I think that this actually has advantages. For scientific matters I think that it is good for people to throw out ideas without thinking about them too much beforehand. Even if the idea is wrong, it can be very useful to think about. It may be useful to learn why it is wrong or a wrong idea may lead to a better idea. Also, I have found that people are more willing to consider ideas that they might find themselves unwilling to deal with in writing or perhaps in speech for ideological reasons. This is helpful in a field like linguistics (I am a linguist) where there is a good deal of ideological disagreement. In retrospect, your initial message was not all that strong. What annoyed me was the accusation that I mis-directed messages regularly. The bit that you found provocative (about thinking before complaining) was tit-for-tat for your admonition to think before posting. However, this was probably not a good way to prevent escalation. It looks like the disagreement over whether my message was an inquiry about a merchant in the sense relevant to inclusion in SU-MARKET stems from a difference in perception of the intended topic of the message. You evidently interpreted it as an inquiry about the credit policies of a particular merchant, the Diamond Center. My message may have been badly worded, but that wasn't my intention. What I wanted to know was what places that advertise that they rebuild your credit actually do, that is, how do they help you with your credit problems. If you watch their commercials, you notice that most of them (there are a couple that show people about to get married in search of rings) say essentially nothing about diamonds but talk only about helping people with credit problems. I meant the Diamond Center only as an example. I thought of this as a general information question along the lines of: "What does a laryngologist do?". (The answer seems to be that they sell you a diamond on credit and then, as long as your account with them is in good shape, this gives you something that looks good on your credit record.) * The LOTS-20 entry represents the sum of the figures for the three DEC-20 computers at LOTS: Hamlet, Othello, and Lear. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyhow, I'm sorry that we got into a fight about such a minor topic. As shown in the rightmost column, there was substantial variation in response rates from the various hosts. The relatively low rate for LOTS (14.9%) is at least partly attributable to the fact that email service from LOTS to SAIL (the collection host) was found to be broken at the beginning of the census. It was repaired a day or so later and the census request was reposted to the LOTS SU-bboards, but the frustration of readers whose census responses initially bounced back probably reduced their overall response rate. Bill Poser It can be seen from the bottom row that the response rates were rather consistent among the bboards, with an overall figure of 26.9% for all bboards. This value is used at the beginning of this article to estimate the total readership of SU-bboards, using the assumption that the response rate for all readers is about the same as for this sample. On this basis, if R census replies are received for any given bboard, the estimated readership is R/r = R/.256 = 3.91*R Percentage of Users Who Read SU-bboards Finally, let us examine what portion of users read SU-bboards. Table 5 shows figures for the same seven TOPS-20 systems considered just above. It can be seen that overall readership is below 5%. Even on the machine with the highest readership (SUSHI) only about 1/3 of the users read SU-bboards regularly. This means that SU-bboards has a long way to go in gaining user acceptance. Table 5. SU-bboard Readership versus User Population Estimated Portion of users who read SU-bboards Approx. Readers of one Total or more su-bbd. su- su- su- su- su- Host Users # % etc market comput. events jobs CSLI 394 41 10.4% 6.1% 8.4% 5.6% 4.3% 5.6% LOTS-20 9000 194 2.2 1.0 .9 .7 .4 .7 SCORE 490 61 12.4 9.8 9.0 8.6 8.0 6.5 SIERRA 1500 24 1.6 .9 .5 .5 .8 .6 SUSHI 630 224 35.6 22.5 17.3 16.8 18.4 17.9 ----- --- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- Total 12,014 544 4.5% 2.6% 2.3% 2.0% 1.8% 2.0% ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SU-bboards remains a bit of a hodge-podge. It provides important and useful information about such things as forthcoming seminars and technical assistance on computer problems. It also provides reviews of products and services, offers and requests for housing and jobs, and various kinds of recreation and entertainment. The challenge to the designer is to make it easier for users to find what they need without having to wade through too much other stuff. Les Earnest APPENDIX - Census Data Table 6. Census Results by Host Readers Total of 1 or su- su- su- su- su- su- Host more etc market comput. events jobs bboards AMDCAD%DECWRL 2 1 1 0 0 0 2 CASCADE.STANFORD 2 0 2 1 1 0 4 CCRMA-F4%SAIL 1 1 0 0 0 1 2 CSLI.STANFORD 11 6 7 8 5 6 32 DECWRL.DEC.COM 5 3 4 1 2 2 12 ESL.ESL.COM 1 1 0 0 1 1 3 FIGARO.STANFORD 1 1 0 1 1 0 3 GLACIER.STANFORD 4 2 4 2 3 2 13 GSB-HOW.STANFORD 2 1 2 1 1 1 6 HELENS.STANFORD 1 1 1 1 0 0 3 ISL.STANFORD 5 2 4 3 3 2 14 KESTREL.ARPA 1 0 1 1 0 0 2 LEADSV%LLL-LCC 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 LOTS-20.STANFORD* 29 18 8 10 3 10 49 NAVAJO.STANFORD 3 2 2 2 2 2 10 OLIVEB.ATC.OLIVET 1 0 1 0 1 1 3 PESCADERO.STANFOR 3 2 3 3 3 2 13 PORTIA.STANFORD 1 1 1 1 1 1 5 PSYCH.STANFORD 2 2 1 0 0 0 3 R20.UTEXAS.EDU 1 1 0 1 1 1 4 ROCKY.STANFORD 5 4 3 5 2 4 18 SAIL.STANFORD 12 10 7 6 9 4 36 SCORE.STANFORD 19 13 12 13 12 14 64 SHASTA.STANFORD 8 4 4 4 7 4 23 SIERRA.STANFORD 12 8 7 5 5 4 29 SOLAR.STANFORD 2 0 0 1 1 0 2 SPAM.ISTC.SRI 1 0 0 1 1 0 2 SPAR-20.ARPA 2 1 2 0 0 0 3 SRI-KL.ARPA 6 4 3 3 3 1 14 SRI-STRIPE.ARPA 3 1 1 0 3 2 7 SUMEX-AIM.STANFO 29 16 18 11 19 17 81 SUN.COM 2 2 2 0 1 1 6 SUSHI.STANFORD 60 38 34 28 30 27 157 ULURU.STANFORD 1 1 0 1 1 0 3 WHITNEY.STANFORD 1 1 0 0 0 0 1 TOTALS 240 148 136 114 122 110 630

PDheader:1987-03-11 16:51:00-08:00 b1250f4693daf1538967e0baaf92041b ∂11-Mar-87 1651 SCHMIDT@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU potential SU-bboards readership Received: from SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 11 Mar 87 16:51:06 PST Date: Wed 11 Mar 87 16:48:01-PST From: Christopher Schmidt <SCHMIDT@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU> Subject: potential SU-bboards readership To: LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>" of Tue 10 Mar 87 18:02:00-PST Message-ID: <12285649444.19.SCHMIDT@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU>

I think your estimation of bboard readers as a percentage of computer users overestimates the number of users. Eg. you list the number of users of CSLI as 394, yet I believe there are only about 75 people actually affiliated with the Center. For 41 people to read SU-BBoards on CSLI is, in my estimation, quite a high proportion. I read bboards on SUMEX, but I have logins on 4 machines which carry SU-BBoards (including CSLI) and probably count as 4 users in your survey; no? Practically all KSL students have logins on SUSHI and/or SCORE in addition to SUMEX. Many hosts (SUMEX and CSLI again spring to mind) maintain logins for people who have long since died or left Stanford. Additionally, CSLI and SUMEX have large numbers of off-campus associates with logins on those machines who have no reason to read SU-bboards. FYI the actual SU-bboard readership at SUMEX is shown below. I didn't track the total number of distinct readers, but I estimate it (using two methods) as being roughly 82-85 people. Since the KSL has about 140 affiliates and a number of them them read SU-bboards on SUSHI, I think I can safely say that our readership is well over 50%. --Christopher Each entry shows <# of census responses>/<actual # of readers>. Total su- su- su- su- su- su- Response Host etc market comput. events jobs bboards Rate, r SUMEX 16/53 18/49 11/43 19/54 17/38 81/237 34.2 ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------- A

PDheader:1987-03-11 17:46:00-08:00 8c0092c19bd1251442320b954e4138b6 ∂11-Mar-87 1746 LES re: potential SU-bboards readership To: SCHMIDT@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Wed 11 Mar 87 16:48:01-PST.]

Your points are well taken; and thanks for the response rate data from Sumex. With respect to the multiple-accounts effect, one of the things in my grand plan is to develop a central register of computer accounts so that we can find out how many _real_ people there are. This will also support university-wide email and FINGERing for those who want it -- i.e. FINGER will check all hosts on which a given person has accounts and will report when and on which one he last ran or is running. Les

PDheader:1987-03-12 14:55:00-08:00 89a343a11ce195b4d0369acc199ef2da ∂12-Mar-87 1455 LES re: postscript to dvi converters? To: L.LOEB@OTHELLO.STANFORD.EDU, A.ERIC@GSB-HOW.STANFORD.EDU CC: su-computers@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Wed 11 Mar 87 16:54:16-PST.]

Actually, a Postscript-to-dvi converter would be a straightforward thing to make and would be useful, but it is a substantial task. The same is true of a Postscript-to-Impress converter. Unfortunately, no one has done either. Les Earnest (who is also an Imagen stockholder)

PDheader:1987-03-16 15:11:00-08:00 c01bfc2f2716e2cb1071323ff4029ee2 ∂16-Mar-87 1511 SJG re: Wayward Posting [In reply to message rcvd 16-Mar-87 14:58-PT.]

OK; that makes your view pretty clear. Please return my message to ETC, though; I am anxious to hear what they have to say. Thanks.

PDheader:1987-03-16 15:37:00-08:00 263ffa2024e45f7df412ae5986308c7e ∂16-Mar-87 1537 LES re: Wayward Posting To: SJG [In reply to message rcvd 16-Mar-87 15:11-PT.]

The fact that you don't read SU-COMPUTERS has no bearing on anything. Neither does the fact that you apparently believe that the guidelines do not apply to you. Who is it that you are axious to hear from? The other brave souls who believe that "Nobody can tell ME what to do"? Les Matt

PDheader:1987-03-16 15:44:00-08:00 7bd02bd2ab5f2e22bc29f234a0a057da ∂16-Mar-87 1544 SJG re: Wayward Posting [In reply to message rcvd 16-Mar-87 15:37-PT.]

I believe that the guidelines apply to everyone, me included, but that their *enforcement* in this fashion is draconian. I am prepared to accept grief, etc, and private messages (JDLH sent me one), or public ones decrying my behavior as antisocial. But when a message from me is rerouted before reaching its intended recipient(s), I suspect that my freedom of speech is being interfered with. Have the readers of SU-ETC explicitly given you permission to censor this BBoard? What prevents you from removing any message you simply find distasteful? Matt

PDheader:1987-03-16 16:23:00-08:00 21c7041dd49e31208dcc9f4adb95459e ∂16-Mar-87 1623 LES re: Wayward Posting To: SJG [In reply to message rcvd 16-Mar-87 15:44-PT.]

How is it an infringement on your freedom of speech to move a message to the bboard that deals with the topic you are discussing? Please do not point to the Bill of Rights -- it isn't there. If you believe that a different policy would be more popular, then I suggest that you start a competing bboard with policies of your choice. In case you didn't notice, SU-bboard policies are not decided by either popular vote or public demonstrations, though we certainly do listen to rational arguments. I have removed a number of trash and duplicate messages from the SAIL bboards, as have a number of other bboard monitors, but I do not know of anyone who deletes messages just because they are offensive. Let me point out again that the issue you are grumbling about is strictly local for now -- only on SAIL is cleanup possible. If you had read my earlier postings about "Whither SU-bboards" that appeared on SU-COMPUTERS you would know that I am advocating making this kind of editing possible on all bboards, though it will take a lot of software development to do it right. The question of whether or not to use it will then be up to the operators of the various bboards. Les

PDheader:1987-03-16 18:00:00-08:00 ad27f8998962ccb7f34686c2270cf21d ∂16-Mar-87 1800 SJG re: Wayward Posting [In reply to message rcvd 16-Mar-87 16:23-PT.]

How does one become a "bboard monitor"? If I am sending a message to the readers of SU-ETC, then it seems that you can only remove that message if you either (1) have the permission of said readers, or (2) can reasonably argue that I am using a facility for which there is "no public right of way" to send this message. I would argue that public right of way on the Stanford BBoards is well established, and has *not* been relinquished in the fashion your removals imply. At what time, and in what fashion, did the Stanford computing community (which "owns" the public right of way) give you discretionary powers with respect to it? Matt

PDheader:1987-03-16 18:43:00-08:00 2695289f6a3f8424a6849343919de8c3 ∂16-Mar-87 1843 LES re: Wayward Posting To: SJG [In reply to message rcvd 16-Mar-87 18:00-PT.]

To answer your first question, anyone with a SAIL account can be a "bboard monitor," but I know of only a handful who do anything. It is essentially voluntary and is generally accepted except for occasional flames such as yours. What is this "Stanford computing community (which "owns" the public right of way)" of which you speak? It appears to me that you are blowing hot air. Every computer system at Stanford operates under the administrative control of some bureaucracy. While many of these organizations exercise as little control as possible over what happens on their systems, it is clear that they have the right to do so. Thus, certain administrators can choose not to carry SU-bboards (and many do) but none of them has any formal say about the policies of those they accept. Neither do the flamers who contribute to these bboards. So far, you keep appealing to certain imaginary "rights" and principles, but you have offered no arguments as to why the bboards should not be edited. The reason for editing is simply to improve reading efficiency. That is also the reason that printed periodicals are edited. Reporters are usually heavily edited, but they seldom flame about it. I do not understand your strong feelings about restructuring the material when none of the content is lost. Les

PDheader:1987-03-16 18:49:00-08:00 8951bc8910a019c662afbf4e1e82ab65 ∂16-Mar-87 1849 SJG re: Wayward Posting [In reply to message rcvd 16-Mar-87 18:43-PT.]

No, you misunderstand me. *Why* is none of the content lost? What if I argue that reposting removes some content, if only by changing the apparent thrust of my message by changing its meta-subject? What concerns me is that any SAIL user can edit a supposedly public BBoard. I argue that by moving my message, you changed its meaning (perhaps only slightly, but a change nevertheless); I would also argue that, in the absence of clear authority vested in you to make such changes, you had no right to do so. But instead of talking about rights, let me simply ask you this: I hereby request that you leave all of my messages alone. If I post something "waywardly", please inform me; if I feel that your arguments are justified, I will move it myself. Is this acceptable? If it is not acceptable, why shouldn't I take similar liberties with your messages? What would your response be if I were to move them to some place I deemed "more appropriate"? (No, Les, this is not a threat.) Matt

PDheader:1987-03-17 14:01:00-08:00 d5c93b6a7df1d3e91e4271f7d7b236a2 ∂17-Mar-87 1401 LES re: Wayward Posting To: SJG [In reply to message rcvd 16-Mar-87 18:49-PT.]

If I send to the wrong bboard (and I have on occasion), then I certainly do not object to someone moving it to the correct location. Your posting was clearly a discussion of SU-bboard protocols, which according to the Guidelines belongs in SU-COMPUTERS. Actually, it was not even a topic of general interest and should have been confined to SAIL. I moved it to computer.txt[bb,doc] so that those who are interested in this topic would find it. I also notified you. I always notify the author when fixing a problem of this kind. You still seem to be arguing that the guidelines do not apply to you, or at least that you are the sole person who can interpret the guidelines as they apply to your postings. Do you really believe that you posted that message in the correct location? I think not. What you are doing is engaging in an ego trip, asserting that no one has the right to correct you, with or without notice. The principal purpose of SU-bboards is to inform or entertain its readers. It is NOT there to serve as a forum for ego-tripping authors, though it is misused in that way much of the time. Anything that I can do to help meet the primary purposes of these bboards, I will. I recall a discussion a few weeks ago in which several people, I think including you, argued that the juvenile postings of Mr. Chicago should be deleted from SAIL. I did not buy that argument. If my recollection is correct about your being a member of the pro-censorship faction, how do you reconcile that stance with your current position? Les

PDheader:1987-03-17 14:20:00-08:00 83276a8aa35eccb4fd7c194f3a3aa333 ∂17-Mar-87 1420 SJG re: Wayward Posting [In reply to message rcvd 17-Mar-87 14:01-PT.]

My view was that the only people with the authority to regulate messages on BBoard were the BBoard community itself. If a majority decided that Mr. Chicago's messages should be deleted, so be it. If the majority decides to delegate such editorial power to an individual, so be it. But I cannot accept any individual "declaring" that he has such authority, and acting on that basis. I request that you do one of the following: (1) Agree to leave my messages alone, (2) Endeavor to obtain a majority decision that empowers you to edit other people's messages, or (3) Send me a message saying specifically that you may continue to edit my messages, at which point I will decide what (if anything) I want to do. My options are apparently: (1) Do nothing (my favorite, even though I feel strongly about this). (2) Send your message to BBoard, and let the community sanction you if it wishes. (3) Something else. (But I don't know what.) Matt

PDheader:1987-03-17 15:29:00-08:00 e9decb5d9af0aade530f126d977d6d54 ∂17-Mar-87 1529 LES re: Wayward Posting To: SJG [In reply to message rcvd 17-Mar-87 14:20-PT.]

Aha! Now I understand! You believe that Stanford in general and SU-bboards in particular is a democracy. While it has been an interesting discussion, I am not prepared to deal with gross mental aberrations through email. Nevertheless, I would be happy to spend a few more minutes in face-to-face discussion of this topic, at your convenience. I all honesty, I will admit that there seem to be a few other people who share your world-view. If you had read the recent discussions about SU-bboard policies on SU-COMPUTERS you could have added your unrealistic arguments to theirs. Anyway, I suggest that we talk. It is a more efficient medium for religious arguments. Les

PDheader:1987-03-23 15:29:00-08:00 b37834310cb98b4335d8bcbde4449bbe ∂23-Mar-87 1529 LES re: bboard guidelines To: KARP@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU CC: su-computers@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Mon 23 Mar 87 12:57:19-PST.]

Peter: Before responding to your suggestion that multiple postings to SU-bboards be encouraged, let me say that I am quite pleased with the way the bboards are functioning now, though there is obviously room for improvement. There were persistent problems with multiple postings from the time SU-BBOARDS split last Summer until a couple of months ago, but that problem has all but vanished now. Posting on multiple SU-bboards makes about as much sense as putting news articles in multiple sections of a newspaper -- and when it happens there, the readers get annoyed. From the beginning of the SU-bboard split, there appeared to be two main classes of people who posted on mutiple bboards: those who thought that SU-ETC was the successor to SU-BBOARDS (and that everything should go there) and those who thought that what they had to say was so important that it should be read by everyone. Many people who were annoyed by these postings sent private email to the multi-posters. Multi-posters in the first class generally seemed to respond positively to the requests, while those in the second class sometimes continued to post to multiple bboards. It was clear to me that if multiple postings were generally condoned, that SU-ETC would eventually become indistinguishable from what SU-BBOARDS used to be. Faced with a seemingly endless stream of multiple postings, I then started recommending the use of pointer messages by those who felt that their messages were of interest to more than one readership. This scheme seems to be working quite well -- not only has the multiple-posting problem virtually vanished, but the number of pointer messages is substantially less than the number of multiple-postings used to be. My theory about why this works is that when writers are faced with the obligation to choose just one location for their posting, they find that it really does fit just one bboard in most cases. Condoning multiple postings would encourage fuzzy thinking, to the detriment of the readership. Incidentally, your use of the term "bboard police" for anyone who complains about things that annoy them is about as thoughtful and responsible as the rest of your proposal. Les

PDheader:1987-03-25 10:14:00-08:00 b8b50d8618cd1dba8c33e600441138be ∂25-Mar-87 1014 BRONSTEIN@Sushi.Stanford.EDU re: bboard guidelines Received: from SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 25 Mar 87 10:14:33 PST Date: Wed 25 Mar 87 10:12:29-PST From: Alex Bronstein <BRONSTEIN@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> Subject: re: bboard guidelines To: LES@Sail.Stanford.EDU In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>" of Mon 23 Mar 87 15:29:00-PST Message-ID: <12289247456.9.BRONSTEIN@Sushi.Stanford.EDU>

Les, [note: private msg] One problem I have with the split is that I am now unable to get "technical-general" help from the community: to be specific, one week ago I posted a request for a technical proceedings. It really didn't belong to any specific bboard (computer, market, jobs...) so I decided to post it to SU-ETC, and not to any others, although I really thought it might belong to SU-COMPUTERS as well. However, due to the amount of noise on SU-ETC, many members of our community who are technically inclined, but don't have time to waste, don't read SU-ETC anymore. Consequently, they didn't see my request for a proceedings they might have had. Fact: no one responded to my request. Yet, it's a recent (85) proceedings, and I know some people in the dept must have gone to that conference, so some people have it. I can only conlude that these people didn't see my message. A few years ago, similar requests to "bboard" always succeeded. I guess that's the price we pay for your policy. You might consider ok. It's high to me. (The reverse: using the N key a lot, has a better benefit/disadvantage ratio to me, and my education.) By the way, your analogy to different pages of a newspaper breaks down with the fact that you can expect most newspapers readers to at least SKIM through most of the pages (and see all the titles). This is not true of bboard anymore. Sincerely, Alex -------

PDheader:1987-03-25 17:23:00-08:00 92442ded0cc51c973cacaf9be20fc903 ∂25-Mar-87 1723 LES re: bboard guidelines To: BRONSTEIN@SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Wed 25 Mar 87 10:12:29-PST.]

The problem that you describe is, I believe, the result of a trend that predates the bboard split. The trend consists of ever-larger numbers of postings and readers and declining per-capita readership. In other words, there are more computers participating and more message traffic as time goes on, but the portion of people who take the time to read bboards on any given machine is declining. I believe that this is due to the increasing time required to look at so much stuff, which forces people with limited time to withdraw. The split itself probably mitigated this trend, but hasn't stopped it. More radical action will be required in the long run, else we will eventually find that the readership consists solely of people who do no useful work. You say "I guess that's the price we pay for your policy." While it is true that I advocated the split and helped carry it out, I must decline the honor of calling it "my" policy -- I was not the first to propose this change and I clearly did not do it unilaterally. Though no formal vote was taken I believe that there was a clear consensus in favor at the time and I believe that any proposal to revert would meet with massive resistance. The specific structure of the new bboards did not conform to my proposal but arose as a consensus at the bboard meeting last summer. For what it is worth, I will shortly propose a change that would make the structure more like what I proposed last year. I am sorry that you find the readership unresponsive, but I believe that you have misdiagnosed the problem. With respect to your rejection of the newspaper analogy, I will say that it holds for me -- I don't even glance at the classified ads in a real newspaper, just as I do not look at one of the SU-bboards. Les

PDheader:1987-03-25 17:53:00-08:00 89a6540c5bdce6f31eb43cb9ed8c3afc ∂25-Mar-87 1753 LES re: bboard guidelines To: BRONSTEIN@SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Wed 25 Mar 87 17:26:34-PST.]

Actually, there were several people who talked about bboard splitting in general terms before me. The first sentence of my first proposal was: "I agree with John Reuling's general proposal that BBoard be segmented, though I would suggest a slightly different structure." My only real contribution was to say "Lets do it now" and to eventually call a meeting to review concrete proposals. Of course, "now" took two months. Les

PDheader:1987-03-26 14:29:00-08:00 555ba7e463a2625d28b57a779a1595c0 ∂26-Mar-87 1429 KARP@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU re: bboard guidelines Received: from SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 26 Mar 87 14:29:15 PST Date: Thu 26 Mar 87 14:29:43-PST From: Peter Karp <KARP@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU> Subject: re: bboard guidelines To: LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>" of Mon 23 Mar 87 15:29:00-PST Message-ID: <12289556427.51.KARP@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU>

Sorry if you were insulted by "bboard police"; it was meant to be a joke. I agree the current bboard scheme is working fairly well on the whole. Peter -------

PDheader:1987-03-28 16:51:00-08:00 769e4c0a28634760ac5228f261224934 ∂28-Mar-87 1651 LES Volleyball Crunch To: CSD@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU

In the Saturday morning challenge match, the decrepit old team from the A.I. Lab mashed the competition in three straight games, confirming their beliefs about the current volleyball state-of-the-art in computer science.

PDheader:1987-03-29 15:00:00-08:00 57517f61417af1a90502306e0317d8e6 ∂29-Mar-87 1500 HITSON@Sushi.Stanford.EDU Re: Volleyball Crunch Received: from SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 29 Mar 87 15:00:53 PST Date: Sun 29 Mar 87 14:58:35-PST From: Bruce Hitson <HITSON@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> Subject: Re: Volleyball Crunch To: LES@Sail.Stanford.EDU cc: CSD@Sushi.Stanford.EDU In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>" of Sat 28 Mar 87 16:51:00-PST Message-ID: <12290348116.9.HITSON@Sushi.Stanford.EDU>

From Les Earnest: > In the Saturday morning challenge match, the decrepit old team from the > A.I. Lab mashed the competition in three straight games, confirming their > beliefs about the current volleyball state-of-the-art in computer science. Some facts and observations---to offset the hyperbole: - The challenge to current students was sent after 5pm, on Friday, during spring break, on the day before the challenge, and arrived at Sushi bboard at 17:07. The challenge to former students was announced to their assembled mass (pun intended) at the FTY celebration earlier that same day. - As we all know, true computer scientists work late into the night and sleep from about 9:30am until noon. Current students who were able to attend this "setup" were seen emerging from their ritual all night hack attacks in MJH at about the same time the former students were arriving from Palo Alto and environs in their yuppiemobiles, the work of the sandman not yet completely removed from their yawning, well-rested faces. It is clear that the "former students" have metastasized and are infecting society as a strange new(?) life(?) form. Observe how many of them were handing out business cards, and draw your own conclusions! - In spite of the fact that there was a former student "plant" on the current student team, the games were close, and the competition fierce. It is clear that the skills honed in the 3 hrs/day, 6 days/week practice sessions at the old A.I. Lab had not been completely lost! But enough excuses. A good time was had by all--and I, for one, am looking forward to playing again soon! REMATCH! --- Bruce P.S. Care to go at it again this afternoon Les? Or perhaps the "decrepit old team" is paying for its victory on this, the day after? -------

PDheader:1987-03-29 22:43:00-08:00 aa7a2b008ea1cb71c5cdd14c7f99bc41 ∂29-Mar-87 2243 LES re: Volleyball Crunch To: HITSON@SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU CC: CSD@SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message from HITSON@Sushi.Stanford.EDU sent Sun 29 Mar 87 14:58:35-PST.]

I confess that the Saturday game was an adequate workout for me -- I can barely walk today. -Les

PDheader:1987-03-31 09:10:00-08:00 4de463187e414ed7816a88db9edb532f ∂31-Mar-87 0910 @Score.Stanford.EDU:REULING@Sushi.Stanford.EDU proposed change to Bboard Arbiter job Received: from SCORE.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 31 Mar 87 09:10:28 PST Received: from Sushi.Stanford.EDU by SCORE.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; Tue 31 Mar 87 09:08:06-PST Date: 31 Mar 1987 09:07 PST (Tue) Message-ID: <REULING.12290808565.BABYL@SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU> From: John Reuling <REULING@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> To: Carlos@CSLI.Stanford.EDU Cc: SU-BB@Score.Stanford.EDU Subject: proposed change to Bboard Arbiter job

Carl- Les Earnest has suggested changing the function of the SU-BBOARDS@SCORE address so that ALL messages are forwarded to the bboard arbiter to decide where to post them. Right now, messages sent to this address from inside Stanford are returned with instructions to repost to one of the split SU Bboards. Messages from outside Stanford are sent to you. A number of posters have complained that they're not sure which bboard to post to. Those people would be encouraged to post to SU-BBOARDS@SCORE rather than posting copies of their message to all of the bboards that MIGHT be appropriate. Les points out that almost everyone has adjusted to the split bboard system, so I don't anticipate that changing this would result in a flood of mail for you. Also, there will be some delay between the time a message is sent to SU-BBOARDS and the time it is resent to the appropriate split bboard, so this will discourage most people from using this mechanism. What do you think of this? Are you willing to try it out for a while? -John

PDheader:1987-03-31 12:38:00-08:00 cca05b5b16c9287abbf455e2ecb79afa ∂31-Mar-87 1238 @Score.Stanford.EDU:REULING@Sushi.Stanford.EDU su-bboards@score Received: from SCORE.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 31 Mar 87 12:38:37 PST Received: from Sushi.Stanford.EDU by SCORE.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; Tue 31 Mar 87 12:36:13-PST Date: 31 Mar 1987 11:25 PST (Tue) Message-ID: <REULING.12290833683.BABYL@SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU> From: John Reuling <REULING@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> To: su-bb-arb@Score.Stanford.EDU cc: su-bb@Score.Stanford.EDU Subject: su-bboards@score

The addresses SU-BBOARDS@SCORE and SU-BBOARDS-FILTER@NAVAJO have been redirected to go to the bboard arbiter. I believe that most messages to "su-bboards" were directed via one of these two. -John

PDheader:1987-04-02 07:02:00-08:00 70f8b9bcdc29ea420eb10407552c7a8a ∂02-Apr-87 0702 SANKAR@Score.Stanford.EDU Re: Double Posting Received: from SCORE.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 2 Apr 87 07:02:24 PST Date: Thu 2 Apr 87 06:59:54-PST From: Sriram Sankar <SANKAR@Score.Stanford.EDU> Subject: Re: Double Posting To: LES@Sail.Stanford.EDU In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>" of Wed 1 Apr 87 23:05:00-PST Message-ID: <12291309549.11.SANKAR@Score.Stanford.EDU>

See, you are one more on the list which feels this is inappropriate for SU-ETC. Some of my friends recommended SU-ETC based not on the guidelines, but on who reads these bboards. Unfortunately, there are quite knowledgable persons who do not read SU-COMPUTERS (for example, non-CS students) but still read SU-ETC. In fact, I believe that they form a reasonable proportion to warrant the double posting. Let me assure you that I did not want to double-post, but there seemed to be no alternative. But then there are a large number of CS students who do not read SU-ETC. Lets consider this one of the unfortunate problems of splitting the bboards. I apologize for the double posting, but there was no way out (my opinion). The only other option may have been to send to SU-COMPUTERS and then send to SU-ETC if there was no response. But I need answers quickly to my query. Anyway, this too would be a double posting, though possibly undetectable. Sorry again, Sriram. ps. I expected this to be my first reply!! -------

PDheader:1987-04-02 14:49:00-08:00 f652c3601887588a0ce2c2cd0bc8b3f5 ∂02-Apr-87 1449 LES re: Double Posting To: SANKAR@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Thu 2 Apr 87 06:59:54-PST.]

You seem to have overlooked the possibility of following the correct procedure: post the message in the appropriate place (SU-COMPUTERS) and, if you get no response, quit. Implicit in your discussion of this matter is the assumption that you are owed an answer and that if you don't get one from the readership of one bboard you are entitled to bring it to the attention of another group even though your inquiry is inappropriate there. That assumption is incorrect -- you have no right to intrude on any readship that you like and you are not owed an answer. Les

PDheader:1987-04-03 16:06:00-08:00 72739dfd13cae739fc8bac7a2f320ce5 ∂03-Apr-87 1606 LES re: Wayward Posting To: ALPER@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Fri 3 Apr 87 13:12:18-PST.]

Yes, I have heard that argument before -- you know that your posting should go elsewhere but yow believe that the people who read your favorite bboard will be more interested than those who read the bboard where it should go. For the record, I regard that as bullshit. SU-bboards exist primarily for the benefit of the readers, not the writers. You also seem to believe that anything entertaining belongs on su-etc. I don't know where you got that bizarre idea, but I hope that you forget it. Your rationalizations provide further evidence that some people either can't or won't work within the current guidelines. I will shortly propose another bboard structure that I hope will work better. Les

PDheader:1987-04-04 14:41:00-08:00 cb737119be715147d984e65b957bbccb ∂04-Apr-87 1441 ALPER@Score.Stanford.EDU re: Wayward Posting Received: from SCORE.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 4 Apr 87 14:41:28 PST Date: Sat 4 Apr 87 14:39:04-PST From: Theodore Alper <ALPER@Score.Stanford.EDU> Subject: re: Wayward Posting To: LES@Sail.Stanford.EDU In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>" of Fri 3 Apr 87 16:06:00-PST Message-ID: <12291917426.19.ALPER@Score.Stanford.EDU>

First off, I thought I was being polite. Have I caused you some inconvenience? I apologize if so; still I found your response to me a bit on the rude side. Try to keep your temper under control. Second, what exactly DOES belong on su-etc? "Anything else" (as in the guidelines on su-computers) is a pretty broad description. I've seen word-puzzles, someone just sent something on t-shirts, people talk about movies, politics, bicycles, and favorite cartoons. Do you think that these things shouldn't be posted? Su-etc seems to be the bboard for entertaining postings that don't have a practical function. I'm not being snide, and if there's something I'm missing I genuinely wish to be informed, but your statement seems like nonsense to me. If you eliminated all the things on su-etc that have no motivation beyond entertainment, what would be left? And, as far as it goes, I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say "SU-bboards exist primarily for the benefit of the readers, not the writers". Surely, it exists for both, no? Su-market is as much a place to advertize as it is a place to read advertizements. Nobody posts out of the goodness of his heart. Certainly, some constraints ought to be put on messages just to keep the bboard distinctions clear, but this serves the writers as well as the posters -- each bboard attracts an audience interested in the issues relevant to that bboard. Finally, I object to my reasons being characterized as "rationaliztions". I don't have my dictionary handy, but I think of rationalizations as arguments thought up to justify a course of action which one wants to take for motives that would be unpleasant to acknowledge. Do you think that's true in my case? What were these hidden, unpleasant motives? Whether my arguments ultimately hold water or not, I think they're genuine. Look, it's your party and you can make whatever rules you desire, regardless of your ability to coherently justify them. But if you ask me to explain WHY I sent such-and-such message to such-and-such bboard, I'll probably say "I thought it would be of interest to these readers and I thought they were the ones most likely to be able to help me". Ted Alper -------

PDheader:1987-04-05 17:03:00-07:00 f90b8e0dd003017e4907ffcc78af8589 ∂05-Apr-87 1703 LES re: Wayward Posting To: ALPER@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Sat 4 Apr 87 14:39:04-PST.]

Inasmuch as you and I haven't communicate much before, there is lots of room for misunderstanding. If you thought my last response was an angry one, you are wrong. My state of mind was much closer to anguish than to anger. You also apparently equate directness with rudeness. So be it. Let me assure you that if I were trying to be rude, your screen would have emitted smoke. Your book solicitation clearly fits the guideline description of SU-MARKET: things for sale, "Where do I buy X?", comments on products, merchants and service providers, e.g., "Who is a good dentist?"; When you conclude that this claim is "nonsense," I have nothing more to add, except that I wonder if we are speaking the same language. I would also conclude that you don't usually read SU-MARKET, inasmuch as solicitations similar to yours appear there frequently. You mention a number of topics that get discussed on su-etc, most of which do belong there, but I trust that you do not make judgements about what belongs there based solely on what appears there -- on the average there is about one misplaced posting per day. I generally communicate privately with the originators of wayward messages about how they should be handled in the future. Most people seem to respond well to such guidance and some even thank me for letting them know. Happily, few people repeatedly post in the wrong place. Even so, sometimes I am more blunt than others and, in any case, not everyone takes criticism well. As a result, about once every two weeks I get into an extended exchange such as this one. These meta-discussions seem to me to be largely a waste of time for both parties, but I have yet to figure out a graceful way to avoid them short of just letting things go, which I fear would lead to further degeneracy. You also say "Look, it's your party and you can make whatever rules you desire," but that is not strictly true either. I and others are administering the bboards for what we believe to be the benefit of the readers. If we get off-track, then we expect to hear complaints, but by the nature of this medium we expect to get a certain number of complaints no matter how well (or poorly) we do. We do listen, however, and try to adjust to needs expressed by the readership. My goal is easy to state but hard to achieve: I would like to see SU-bboards serve as a useful information resource for a majority of the Stanford community. So far, the bboards are a long way from achieving that goal even within the limited CS and EE communities. The reasons are complex, but the problem can be characterized as "Too much garbage to appeal to the general reader." I hope and believe that a combination of better software and better human organization will eventually overcome this problem while retaining the spontaniety of the existing bboards for those who want it. For now, all that I ask from contributors to SU-bboards is that they read the guidelines periodically and try to follow them. Les Earnest

PDheader:1987-04-06 10:23:00-07:00 308dbef36b493a57179757cf5c9a4b37 ∂06-Apr-87 1023 LEWIS@Sushi.Stanford.EDU Re: Wayward Posting Received: from SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 6 Apr 87 10:23:39 PDT Date: Mon 6 Apr 87 10:20:52-PDT From: Bil Lewis <LEWIS@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> Subject: Re: Wayward Posting To: LES@Sail.Stanford.EDU cc: LEWIS@Sushi.Stanford.EDU In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>" of Fri 3 Apr 87 15:17:00-PST Message-ID: <12292383788.32.LEWIS@Sushi.Stanford.EDU>

Les, I hadn't interpreted market in that sense of the word, but I can see logic in it. I'll remember for the future. -Bil -------

PDheader:1987-04-10 17:33:00-07:00 8f4596367ad38ac298528a3f67404de0 ∂10-Apr-87 1733 LES re: Programming and math To: JMC@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU CC: su-etc@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message rcvd 10-Apr-87 13:33-PT.]

The distinction between "cookbook programmers" and what are today called "computer scientists" (even though they are actually engineers) was widely recognized at the beginning of the computer era, but with different nomenclature. At that time the higher-level people were called "programmers" and the lower-level ones were called "coders." Over time, title inflation set in, all computerniks became "programmers," and "coder" disappeared from the vocabulary. This is not unlike what happens to terms like "madam." In most languages, any term describing an elegant lady transforms within a few generations into a euphemism for someone working as, or dealing with, prostitutes. Les

PDheader:1987-04-15 18:49:00-07:00 31cf7aec9240fcc7dc65268684414e2a ∂15-Apr-87 1849 LES re: "feminism" To: MURCH@SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU CC: su-etc@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Wed 15 Apr 87 00:47:10-PDT.]

While Steven Murch gets annoyed by "feminism," I get annoyed by prudish attempts to avoid the word "sex" by substituting the more refined and ambiguous word "gender." When he talks about a "gender awareness" or "gender equality" movement, it appears to me that he is arguing in favor of liguistic coverups rather than sex equality. One of the silliest transformations of this type happened many years ago when some people at IBM learned to count with all of their fingers and some of their toes, but instead of correctly naming this number system "sexadecimal" they bowed to management pressure and called it "hexadecimal," a bastard mixture of Greek and Latin roots. Unfortunately, the prissy form caught on and persists. If IBM had realized that DEC would eventually become a formidable competitor, they probably would have found a substitute for the second component of that name as well. Les

PDheader:1987-05-04 22:31:00-07:00 915c319982c8f38e7b6e9296f88b8ec1 ∂04-May-87 2231 @Score.Stanford.EDU:PASTERNACK@KL.SRI.COM Hi, Ilan! How are you? Received: from SCORE.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 4 May 87 22:31:30 PDT Received: from KL.SRI.COM by SCORE.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; Mon 4 May 87 22:23:57-PDT Date: Mon 4 May 87 22:28:53-PDT From: Henry Pasternack <PASTERNACK@KL.SRI.COM> Subject: Hi, Ilan! How are you? To: su-etc@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <12299856352.12.PASTERNACK@KL.SRI.COM>

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PDheader:1987-05-04 23:22:00-07:00 e302563b3266ded40044fd81bb7c0183 ∂04-May-87 2322 ILAN@Score.Stanford.EDU Personal attacks on su-etc Received: from SCORE.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 4 May 87 23:22:24 PDT Date: Mon 4 May 87 23:16:41-PDT From: Ilan Vardi <ILAN@Score.Stanford.EDU> Subject: Personal attacks on su-etc To: les@Sail.Stanford.EDU cc: ilan@Score.Stanford.EDU Message-ID: <12299865054.14.ILAN@Score.Stanford.EDU>

As you might recall pasternack@sri has been referring to personal friction between him and me on su-etc. These messages were on his own initiative. At that time you advised me to ignore these messages. Today he sent a further message to su-etc which I believe was motivated by an altercation between him and me this weekend. This last message was obviously of no consequence to su-etc as it literally had no content, but I believe was designed merely to harass me. Since Pasternack is not a Stanford user, and since these messages are a form of harassment, I would like to know if you could take some action against him. Personally, I believe that a warning would be sufficient. -Ilan PS Below are his previous messages regarding me to su-etc (though the 2'nd message isn't out of line since it refers to a previous flame on my part). 24-Feb-87 23:18:58-PST,581;000000000000 Return-Path: <PASTERNACK@SRI-KL.ARPA> Received: from SRI-KL.ARPA by SCORE.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; Tue 24 Feb 87 23:18:57-PST Date: Tue 24 Feb 87 23:20:56-PST From: Henry Pasternack <PASTERNACK@SRI-KL.ARPA> Subject: Role. To: su-etc@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <12281788814.10.PASTERNACK@SRI-KL.ARPA> Role is a French word as well as an English word. In French, it has a circumflex, and the usage, although archaic, may be considered proper in English as well. Of course, since Ilan ignores everything I say, this message is of no use. -Henry ------- 2-Mar-87 22:21:24-PST,765;000000000000 Return-Path: <PASTERNACK@SRI-KL.ARPA> Received: from SRI-KL.ARPA by SCORE.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; Mon 2 Mar 87 22:21:22-PST Date: Mon 2 Mar 87 22:22:55-PST From: Henry Pasternack <PASTERNACK@SRI-KL.ARPA> Subject: Cycling sage. To: su-etc@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <12283351115.9.PASTERNACK@SRI-KL.ARPA> I seem to recall a particular ex-member of the cycling team who was quite proud of his three-quarters ability to do a track stand. He would publicize his ability by demonstrating slow circles in the middle of the intersection. Oncoming drivers applauded his low-velocity maneuvering skills by gleefully blaring their horns. In his spare time, this cyclist found the energy to pursue his interest in mathematics. -Henry ------- 4-May-87 22:23:58-PDT,334;000000000000 Return-Path: <PASTERNACK@KL.SRI.COM> Received: from KL.SRI.COM by SCORE.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; Mon 4 May 87 22:23:57-PDT Date: Mon 4 May 87 22:28:53-PDT From: Henry Pasternack <PASTERNACK@KL.SRI.COM> Subject: Hi, Ilan! How are you? To: su-etc@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <12299856352.12.PASTERNACK@KL.SRI.COM> ------- -------

PDheader:1987-05-05 14:17:00-07:00 c386d2378966c89813b14df1822a2b23 ∂05-May-87 1417 LES Spurious Posting To: Pasternack@KL.SRI.COM

Why did you send this to su-etc?

PDheader:1987-05-05 14:22:00-07:00 2f7b6a968db1be23a3b3f1259ad89346 ∂05-May-87 1422 PASTERNACK@KL.SRI.COM Re: Spurious Posting Received: from KL.SRI.COM by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 5 May 87 14:22:09 PDT Date: Tue 5 May 87 14:21:25-PDT From: Henry Pasternack <PASTERNACK@KL.SRI.COM> Subject: Re: Spurious Posting To: LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>" of Tue 5 May 87 14:17:00-PDT Message-ID: <12300029754.21.PASTERNACK@KL.SRI.COM>

Because I inadvertently replied to the wrong message, and it seemed like an even greater waste of space to write an apology to the bboard. -Henry -------

PDheader:1987-05-05 15:10:00-07:00 0a9223185a0428319d59d3c43cd6e27e ∂05-May-87 1510 LES re: Spurious Posting To: PASTERNACK@KL.SRI.COM [In reply to message sent Tue 5 May 87 14:21:25-PDT.]

I don't understand. You post an apparently personal message on su-etc because you "inadvertently replied to the wrong message"? You waste everyone's time with this posting because "it seemed like an even greater waste of space to write an apology to the bboard"? Of course, according to the guidelines, you should post no apologies. Please clarify these remarks. They make even less sense to me than the original posting. Les

PDheader:1987-05-05 16:47:00-07:00 a437bb6af781295bd087128949310e51 ∂05-May-87 1647 PASTERNACK@KL.SRI.COM Spurious Posting. Received: from KL.SRI.COM by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 5 May 87 16:46:53 PDT Date: Tue 5 May 87 16:46:04-PDT From: Henry Pasternack <PASTERNACK@KL.SRI.COM> Subject: Spurious Posting. To: les@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <12300056088.19.PASTERNACK@KL.SRI.COM>

Allow me to clarify myself: Due to an inadvertent error, I sent a personal message to the bboard on which I had been reading Ilan Vardi's comments, rather than to Mr. Vardi himself. I chose not to post an explanation because to do so would have served little purpose, and would have been in violation of bboard guidelines. Les, the message was not malicious. It was quite tiny. It is a waste of time to pursue this matter any further. Please, let's not have an argument. Let's reserve arguments for repeated, malicious abuses. -Henry -------

PDheader:1987-05-05 17:53:00-07:00 aca543ef32898570f53be5e4ff902b5c ∂05-May-87 1753 LES re: Spurious Posting. To: PASTERNACK@KL.SRI.COM [In reply to message sent Tue 5 May 87 16:46:04-PDT.]

Fair enough. Ilan has the impression that you are trying to harass him. If you feel that you must, that is between the two of you, but please do it privately. Les

PDheader:1987-05-05 17:59:00-07:00 942dad1e4d06b599afa44609f28a1c91 ∂05-May-87 1759 LES Pasterneck Pestering To: Ilan@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU

Here is an exchange from today. Perhaps I picked the wrong message to be picky about. -Les

PDheader:1987-05-06 09:45:00-07:00 a19e2a5fd596c42088949a26149d1afa ∂06-May-87 0945 PASTERNACK@KL.SRI.COM Ilan Vardi. Received: from KL.SRI.COM by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 6 May 87 09:45:42 PDT Date: Wed 6 May 87 09:44:52-PDT From: Henry Pasternack <PASTERNACK@KL.SRI.COM> Subject: Ilan Vardi. To: les@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <12300241554.31.PASTERNACK@KL.SRI.COM>

Ilan is basically a nice fellow. But he has a very fragile ego. Three years ago, he decided to never speak to me again, because I told him a young woman member of the cycling team was becoming irritated by Ilan's efforts to instruct her while she was riding. Ilan now pretends I do not exist, and will blatantly ignore me if I approach him or speak to him. I occasionally try to engage him in conversation, and if I persist, he eventually responds with obscenities. He also likes to interrupt conversations I am having with his friends. At Pescadero this weekend, he barged into a conversation I was having with my roommate, speaking over my left shoulder as though I weren't there. Les, this is very odd behavior. Harassment? I've had barely a minute's conversation with him in three years, and most of his end of the dialogue has consisted of swear words. -Henry -------

PDheader:1987-05-06 12:30:00-07:00 65c366b3a1098f43a02d58e3a6e56127 ∂06-May-87 1230 LES re: Ilan Vardi. To: PASTERNACK@KL.SRI.COM [In reply to message sent Wed 6 May 87 09:44:52-PDT.]

You say: > Harassment? I've had barely a minute's conversation with him in > three years, and most of his end of the dialogue has consisted of > swear words. Tell me, who does the following posting describe? -Les 2-Mar-87 22:21:24-PST,765;000000000000 Return-Path: <PASTERNACK@SRI-KL.ARPA> Date: Mon 2 Mar 87 22:22:55-PST From: Henry Pasternack <PASTERNACK@SRI-KL.ARPA> Subject: Cycling sage. To: su-etc@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <12283351115.9.PASTERNACK@SRI-KL.ARPA> I seem to recall a particular ex-member of the cycling team who was quite proud of his three-quarters ability to do a track stand. He would publicize his ability by demonstrating slow circles in the middle of the intersection. Oncoming drivers applauded his low-velocity maneuvering skills by gleefully blaring their horns. In his spare time, this cyclist found the energy to pursue his interest in mathematics. -Henry -------

PDheader:1987-05-06 14:06:00-07:00 7bd5bce93cc8890f900ae78e8a7754a7 ∂06-May-87 1406 PASTERNACK@KL.SRI.COM Ilan Vardi, cyclist. Received: from KL.SRI.COM by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 6 May 87 14:06:42 PDT Date: Wed 6 May 87 14:05:48-PDT From: Henry Pasternack <PASTERNACK@KL.SRI.COM> Subject: Ilan Vardi, cyclist. To: les@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <12300289056.17.PASTERNACK@KL.SRI.COM>

People lambast one another with regularity on the bulletin board. The posting you have referred to is rather tame compared to the sorts of insults I see traded between the more vocal and vehement contributors. But Ilan seems to have a rather more acute sensitivity than the others. At the time that I sent that message, Ilan had been offering his advice on bicycling and bicycling safety, I think. I wanted to give my perspective on Ilan's abilities as a cyclist and on his credibility as a spokesman for the cycling community. I consider Ilan to be a reckless and dangerous rider, based upon my experiences with him and the cycling team. In any event, I have neither threatened Ilan, not made false claims, nor directed unreasonable quantities of mail at him. I speak with him only at infrequent intervals, even though I see him often. I don't believe Ilan has any particular complaint against me requiring administrative intervention. For the record, Ilan has never contacted me, either publicly or privately, to complain about my treatment of him on the bulletin board. "tattle tales". Ours is a petty personal matter, and I think he is wasting your time by calling it to your attention. Lately, I have been growing increasingly tired of squabbles. Certainly this one has been more trouble than it is worth. If it's OK with you, why don't we drop this entirely, and I'll make an even greater effort to control myself when I think of writing about Ilan. -Henry -------

PDheader:1987-05-07 12:15:00-07:00 5b1002a34c251f90415de5b0b10e3183 ∂07-May-87 1215 LES re: Saturday To: 87.NEE@GSB-HOW.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Thu 7 May 87 09:35:42-PDT.]

The rule that permits unlicensed riders to compete in time trials is 1E3. I confess that I had individual time trials in mind when I wrote that rule, but team time trials should work too. Any blunders are most likely to affect other members of the same team, which is fair. I finally talked on the phone with the people who will be doing the timing (allegedly), namely Chris Neilson (female) and Bob Westmoreland. They tried to tell me that they knew all about timing team time trials, having done the 1986 Worlds. I pointed out that Event Services had done that. Neilson then said that Event Services was their (AT&T's) subcontractor (true) and that some of the people on their crew worked for Event Services (unverifiable). SAIL IDs How intolerant are the young! In an earlier time, Sail's 3-letter user identifiers were a breakthrough in the humanization of computers. I next asked how they planned to pick the third rider of each team. She said they would just watch them as they came to the line and pick the third one. I asked how they would handle teams that have broken up. She said that is not permitted under the rules -- that at least three riders must cross the line together (!). I pointed out that she obviously does not know the rules and had better start learning them. Things got a bit tense at this point. The original operating system that was received from DEC (vintage 1966) permitted users to be identified only by numbers. Fortunately it proved rather easy to modify the code to accept up to 3 letters. Concurrently, system hackers at Carnegie Mellon University fiddled their version of the system in a slightly different manner and had their users log in with such mnemonic IDs as "2379MX42." For some reason that awfulness persisted for many years. I asked how they planned to get the turnaround times back to the computer operator. She said that turnaround verification is not part of the timing function and so is not one of their responsibilities (!!). The 3-letter IDs are easy to type and came to be used as "handles" in much the same way as the colorful titles adopted later by denizens of citizens band radio. Naturally, people concocted pronunciations for many of them. For example, "MRC" is pronounced "murk." A lady who had started using her initials (PAW) changed because she didn't like the sound of it. In the course of this conversation I learned that they have assigned the same number to all members of a given team instead of different numbers for each rider. I asked how they would prevent teams from dropping a rider on the way out and picking him up on the way back, while dropping an exhausted rider. She said that it just wasn't permitted! Still others have found it expedient to adopt pseudonyms. For example, a well-known computer scientist who got tired of receiving dumb messages arranged to have eveything addressed to his public ID go to his secretary, while he uses a secret ID. I called Mary Hiller back and pointed out that her "timing" crew has misrepresented themselves. Unfortunately, they are provided through AT&T, which is a major sponsor and it is obviously too late to make alternate arrangements. Admittedly, there are times when you really want to know "Who is that?" Such information was not available in early timesharing systems. To fill this need, about 15 years ago I invented a program called FINGER which has since migrated to quite a few different operating systems. While it helps to further humanize the computer by giving "real" names and places, it unfortunately can also be used to snoop in various ways. This fact bothers me, but that it another story. I plan to stick with my original plan, which is to watch and note problems but not to try to do it for them. We will have to do the turnaround timing, however. I offer you a choice of site -- start, turn, or finish. It seems to me that you could probably do the most good at the finish. Joan and Jay will handle the other positions and I plan to look for trouble up and down the course using Ian's trusty moped. LES and Les

PDheader:1987-05-07 12:51:00-07:00 25cd20e54f922388af3b10602981a585 ∂07-May-87 1251 LES Grand Prize Car For Sale To: su-market@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU

In case anyone else may be tempted to use a flare indoors in the future, I suggest that you check with me first. I know of a much better use for such a flare. That's right. People really do win cars in drawings -- I just won one in the KFOG radio drawing last Sunday.

PDheader:1987-05-15 18:06:00-07:00 5412dcc5cdf7b630e13476bebfba1f80 ∂15-May-87 1806 LES Windmill Generators To: su-etc@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU

While the California windmills appear to be mostly a tax-subsidized boondoggle that will rapidly fade away now that the tax breaks are ending, there _is_ a need for reliable, cost-effective windmills that is not being met. In most rural areas in Alaska, energy costs are high and there is ample wind that could be used but no one has figured out a reliable way to exploit it. Alaska is currently an oil-producing state that derives most of the income for its state government from oil revenues. The recent depression of oil prices has caused severe financial problems there. Much of the state income is spent on public works projects. Some of it is used to subsidize petroleum products in the native villages -- e.g. each gallon of diesel fuel shipped to the villages is subsidized something like 10 cents by the state. In most areas, petroleum products are shipped and stored in barrels that are brought in by barge once a year, which makes these products rather expensive. For reasons of convenience, and with the help of the state subsidy, the native groups now make heavy use of gasoline-powered vehicles in preference to kayaks and dog teams. For example, they use 100 MPH snow machines or three-wheelers for local transportation. Only "gussaks" keep dog teams in Alaska now, for recreational racing. ("Gussak" is the slightly-derogitory Yupik name for Europeans. It is is a corruption of "cossack," for reasons that you can probably figure out). The villagers do still keep dogs around, for a very practical purpose. There is one tied up outside the door to each house to function as a garbage disposal unit. Each native village has a diesel-powered electrical system and cable TV, fed by satellite, both provided by the state. This wonderful welfare state is headed for trouble in the long run, however. The North Slope oil is expected to run out some time in the 1990s. In recognition of the forthcoming revenue and energy crunch, the state government is seeking alternative energy sources and has underwritten a number of experiments with windmills. Windmills would appear to be admirably suitable as an alternative energy source -- in much of Western Alaska, the _average_ wind speed at the surface is about 25 MPH. Unfortunately, peak wind speeds are considerably higher and all windmills that have been tried to date self-destruct in short order. As a consequence, Alaska has terminated all experiments in this area. They are still hopeful that a reliable windmill will someday be developed that can operate year-round in their harsh environment, but they have developed a healthy skepticism about slick-talking salesmen from the lower states. (In case you are wondering where I collected all this opinionated information, one of my sons is married to a Yupik Eskimo lady and also helps give away Alaska's funds to slick and not-so-slick salesmen. He and his family, currently including three little ones, spend a number of weeks each year in his wife's home village of Tununak, which is on an island in the Bering Sea. We will revisit them there next month.) Les Earnest

PDheader:1987-05-21 01:03:00-07:00 10bb403f95688693b56e17d3e8aded5a ∂21-May-87 0103 LES re: Text of "Safety" Legislation appeal letter To: su-etc@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Tue, 19 May 87 15:12:26 PDT.]

The proposed "safety" legislation that we are being exhorted to support appears to be another attempt to parlay a sad incident into an excuse to stamp out civil liberties. The summary says that "It gets drug and alcohol abusers out of safety-critical transportation positions (rail, airline, bus, and trucking industries) and into rehabilitation programs." What a wonderful idea! But how will these "abusers" be identified? No doubt through mandatory drug testing programs, which constitute a gross invasion of privacy. The nosy folks who want to know what various employees are ingesting would be well advised to work on the correct end of the problem: employers have a right, and in some cases a duty, to measure the ability of employees to do their jobs and to take appropriate action if they can't. There are a number of physical and mental conditions that are unrelated to drug or alcohol use that may inhibit individual performance. For example, an airline pilot may simply be too sleepy to do his job adequately. Instead of focussing on just the part of the problem that involves "moral" issues, employers dealing with services that involve public safety should be called upon to devise appropriate job performance tests and to administer them both randomly and when there is evidence of possible impairment of mental or physical abilities, so as to adequately control risks to the public of inadequate performance. If you buy this argument, I suggest that you write to your senators and congressmen saying so and opposing opressive and irrelevent measures such as mandatory work-connected drug and alcohol testing. Les Earnest

PDheader:1987-06-03 18:13:00-07:00 c45ec6042cd39b5824ff033ea09e4c12 ∂03-Jun-87 1813 @Sushi.Stanford.EDU:B.BCPLAYR@MACBETH.STANFORD.EDU Boland Amendment text Received: from SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 3 Jun 87 18:13:33 PDT Received: from MACBETH.STANFORD.EDU by Sushi.Stanford.EDU with TCP; Wed 3 Jun 87 18:09:11-PDT Date: Wed 3 Jun 87 18:11:19-PDT From: Christopher Hayes <b.bcplayr@MACBETH.STANFORD.EDU> Subject: Boland Amendment text To: su-etc@SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU Address: Haus Mitt 316 (620 Mayfield Ave., Stanford, CA 94305-8466) Telephone: 415 327 4904 Message-ID: <12307673784.110.B.BCPLAYR@MACBETH.STANFORD.EDU>

I have appended the text of the Boland Amendment to this message. I would have marked the sections important to the current debate, but the text is not that long and I would have ended up marking 3/4 of it anyway. The text is available in my directory as [Macbeth]<b.bcplayr>boland.txt, appropriately de-protected for reading, copying, FTPing, or whatever. ---cjh P.S. I've gone over my weekly allocation in typing this, so you'd better enjoy it! ---------- {Excerpted from the Amendment to the Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1983. Report to the House Committee on Foreign Affairs. Document # Y 1.1/8:98-122 Part 2, pp 7-8. Located in the Jonsson Gov't. Documents Library, in the stacks on the 4th floor.} ---------- I agree with most of Ilan's remarks regarding the Olympics and believe that the most serious problems with them in their current form stem from excessive emphasis on nationalism and the foolish concept of "amateurism." I also believe that this "sports" event has been distorted by the inclusion of a number of performing arts in addition to true sports. I believe that the performing arts should have a separate competition, for those who want it. I note that all three of the problems that I will discuss represent departures from the original Olympic ideals -- the ones founded in Greece. The original Olympics were by far the most successful sports competition series in the history of the world, inasmuch as they were held every four years for over 1100 years, until banned by the jealous Romans. Does anyone expect the Superbowl to last, say, 200 years? I don't. While the original Olympics are worth emulating in many ways, there were some aspects that were not very progressive. For example, not only were women excluded from the competition, but they were not even permitted to _watch_ the events, except for a few special priestesses. [This is the first of three notes; the other two are on "amateurism" and the performing arts.] Nationalism The founder of the modern Olympics, Baron de Coubertin, apparently failed to foresee that by structuring the Olympics along nationalistic lines, they would come to be regarded as a competition between nations and would, therefore, become an instrument of foreign policy, much like war. The nationalistic structure has been a source of great financial strength for the Olympic movement, in that it appeals to tribal instincts, but it also contains the seeds of destruction for this undertaking. The International Olympic Committee has long insisted that no official scores or medal counts should be kept along national lines, but the media are happy to compile and report this information. As long as the athletes are regarded as representing their countries rather than themselves and the flags of victors are run up at awards ceremonies and their national anthems are played, it will be natural for terrorists, despots, and politicians to regard the Olympics as a forum to be manipulated and controlled for political or nationalistic gain. One of the early exploiters of the Olympic forum was Adolph Hitler, who structured the 1936 Olympics in Berlin as a showcase for his political movement and for Aryan superiority. Alas, Jesse Owens and other non-Aryan competitors blew a hole in his neat scheme. The Munich Olympics, much later, also ended badly under the direction of Palestinian terrorists. Still later, Jimmy Carter successfully blocked U.S. participation in the games for political purposes. Being unable to do anything directly about the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, he seized upon the idiotic scheme of sacrificing the efforts of U.S. athletes as a way of expressing displeasure. This display of nationalistic fervor was reciproacted by the USSR four years later, naturally. I believe that in order to survive in the long run, the Olympics must cease being a forum for nationalism. One idea that has merit would be to have Continental Games to qualify the best athletes from each continent, then have Olympic Games in which these athletes represent their continents, not their countries. Or, better yet, they might represent themselves. The question is, would anyone be interested in competition between North America, South America, Europe, Asia, Africa, Oceania and Antarctica? Are we ready to join a team that includes Canadians, Cubans, Guatamalans, and Mexicans? Everyone could look forward to beating up on Antarctica, at least until penguins are declared eligible for the swimming events. While many athletes have benefitted from their Olympic experiences, increasing numbers are being manipulated, threatened, exploited and, in a few cases, killed. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that World War III will begin in an Olympic dormitory or on a soccer field. TITLE VIII--PROHIBITION ON COVERT ASSISTANCE FOR MILITARY OPERATIONS IN NICARAGUA; AUTHORIZATION OF OVERT INTERDICTION ASSISTANCE Les Earnest

PDheader:1987-06-06 21:19:00-07:00 509a33f14aa466efa1c33f0b9e2bd3ae ∂06-Jun-87 2119 JMC re: A question for JMC To: helen@PSYCH.STANFORD.EDU, su-etc@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message from helen@Psych.Stanford.EDU sent Sat, 6 Jun 87 18:13:36 PDT.]

I might have managed a concise answer to Helen Cunningham if there weren't so many wrong presumptions in the question. As it is, I 'll do two installments. The first will deal with the question with its assumptions, and the second will compare the U.S. and the Soviet Union other communist countries in detail. First I'm not a typical person "of my generation", and I suspect that Helen may not be typical of hers. Me first. I have an untypically detailed knowledge of the Soviet Union and communism for a non-specialist. My parents were (American) communists, and I was brought up as one. There is (or was) a communist culture, but I won't take the time to describe it. I see echoes of it in more recent left wing cultures. I joined the Communist Party at 17 and quit at 25 in 1952. I had gradually become convinced of the substantial truth of the accusations about the Soviet Union and Stalin that I had hoped weren't true. Fortunately, I quit in 1952, because after Stalin died in 1953 I might have stayed in for a while hoping that things would get better. I remained more or less a socialist considering that the Soviets had betrayed socialism. My first visit to the Soviet Union was in 1965, and between then and 1977 I made more than ten visits. I had learned Russian well enough to lecture in Russian and to read newspapers and some books. I hoped that the Soviet Union would get better until 1968 when the invasion of Czechoslovakia convinced me that it would not. By that time I had made many scientific contacts and friendships, so I continued to visit. Still in 1965 I was an opponent of the U.S. position in Vietnam and took part in the first faculty support of student draft resistance. I became rather well acquainted with students in connection with my Mid-Peninsula Free University activity from 1967 to 1971. It was 1970 that convinced me that American and Stanford student radicals were corrupting themselves in the same way as Soviet communists had done. In particular I became convinced that they would use oppressively any power they acquired. I also became convinced of the falsity of the attacks on American policy that were made at the time and are rather like Helen's accusations. I became a Republican in 1972 on becoming convinced that socialism was unlikely to be economically successful even when democratic. All that remains of my ideological upbringing is atheism. I should say that reading Russian, experiencing communism and visiting the Soviet Union are all unnecessary for understanding. It's all in books, and I consider my personal knowledge only a confirmation and supplement to what I read in books by people with much better opportunities to observe than I had. For now I'll just recommend Sidney Hook's autobiography "An Unquiet Life". The Stanford Bookstore has it. Now to Helen's mistaken presumptions. 1. I would rather bet that the Soviet Union doesn't have a specific plan to attack the U.S., but I suspect that if they were confident of military superiority they would succumb to the temptation to abuse their power. Therefore, I favor a strong defense. 2. They are indeed "far worse" than we are. In fact my opinion is that U.S. policy has been rather good. 3. Some of the regimes the U.S. has supported have been repressive, though often the alternative was worse. Some of the regimes the U.S. is accused of supporting, e.g. South Africa, are not being supported. The accusers would be satisfied only if we went to war with South Africa. I agree with Jeane Kirkpatrick's distinction between authoritarian and totalitarian regimes and consider amply supported her belief that the former often are converted into democracies, and the latter never have. 4. The characterization of the U.S. attitude toward Latin America is wrong and so is the characterization of U.S. naval activity. 5. The U.S. activity in Vietnam was, as Reagan said, "a noble effort". The fact that it didn't succeed has cost more than a million lives. 6. The atomic bomb may have saved my life, since I might have been involved in the invasion of Japan if the war had lasted a year and a half longer. It certainly saved hundreds of thousands of American and probably millions of Japanese lives as well as sparing the Japanese division into American and Soviet controlled parts. 7. I don't agree with your moral characterization of the U.S. in general and Reagan in particular. Reagan is a mild man and has shown no desire to "ram anything down anybody's throat". 8. Finally, I don't agree with your characterization of the generations. As I recall the last poll I read concerning attitude towards the Soviet Union, the differences among age groups weren't large. It may well be that Helen's views are dominant among psychology graduate students at Stanford. Most of them may have had such views even before they decided to study psychology. Both politics and profession seem to be strongly correlated with temperament. A detailed comparison of communist regimes including the Soviet Union with democratic regimes including the United States is reserved for the next installment.

PDheader:1987-06-08 23:00:00-07:00 3072db85289f822d91508c2778a24c23 ∂08-Jun-87 2300 JMC re: talkin bout my ge-ge-generation To: helen@PSYCH.STANFORD.EDU, su-etc@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message from helen@psych.stanford.edu sent Mon, 8 Jun 87 21:26:44 PDT.]

Indeed 1960s radicals weren't, for the most part, into killing. I don't recall that this guy was connected with Bruce Franklin's Venceremos, but that outfit was into killing. One of my daughter's grade school and high school classmates and the daughter of a Stanford Medical School Professor spent four years in prison for the murder (with others) of an unarmed prison guard. Two guards were taking a prisoner from one prison to another when their car was forced of the road and both were shot. One survived and described Andrea. Since she had a red Afro, it wasn't hard. The story is involved but eventually they were all caught, tried and convicted. The gang included both radical students and professional criminals, whom the students had recruited by visiting prisons. The criminals pulled the triggers. The prisoner who was rescued was not grateful, since he was in for something far less serious than murder, and demanded to speak to Franklin. Unfortunately, he only got to talk to Franklin on the telephone, and so, when he later turned states evidence, was not able to provide the evidence needed to indict Franklin. Franklin was also the theorist of the prisoner-radical connection which was responsible for almost all the radical killings, including the Symbionese Liberation Army murder of the Oakland School Superintendent and the Brink's murders in New York. He wrote an article, which I may still have somewhere, saying that Marx was mistaken in not ascribing revolutionary potential to the lumpen-proletariat, e.g. to ordinary criminals. For those that haven't heard of Franklin, he was a Professor of English at Stanford and the leader of a Maoist gang called Venceremos. He was eventually, after a long hearing, fired for inciting an illegal occupation of the Computation Center. Actually that was probably the least of his crimes. He is now a Professor of English at Rutgers.

PDheader:1987-06-11 09:53:00-07:00 6b2cd7adab6388bb20db770926e93163 ∂11-Jun-87 0953 @Score.Stanford.EDU:reuling@rocky.stanford.edu local-bboard-only@whitney Received: from SCORE.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 11 Jun 87 09:53:21 PDT Received: from rocky.stanford.edu by SU-SCORE.ARPA with TCP; Thu 11 Jun 87 09:50:32-PDT Received: by rocky.stanford.edu; Thu, 11 Jun 87 09:52:19 PDT Date: Thu, 11 Jun 87 09:52:19 PDT From: John Reuling <reuling@rocky.stanford.edu> Subject: local-bboard-only@whitney To: bradley@whitney.stanford.edu Cc: su-bb@score.stanford.edu

After 4:30am tomorrow, no more su bboard messages will forward to Whitney from Score, Sushi, or LOTS. The rest of the campus will stop feeding there within another 48 hours. The feed to coyote was cut a couple of days ago. -John

PDheader:1987-06-16 16:25:00-07:00 63765f9c04e0b715741b98a84d6872eb ∂16-Jun-87 1625 LES Request for assistance To: CSD@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU CC: Receptionist@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU, ALS@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU

A member of our community, Art Samuel, is partially disabled and needs wheelchair assistance in getting out of Jacks Hall. If you might be willing to help, please read on. Art comes to Jacks Hall about three times a week to "keep in touch" and has made arrangements for assistance in getting up to his office. He needs help in leaving, which consists of pushing the wheelchair to the elevator and out to his car, then helping to put the folding wheelchair in the trunk. Total time is about five minutes. If you are willing to help, please send a message to Receptionist@Score saying so and giving your telephone extension. She will compile a list of available volunteers and, when Art calls, will contact someone on the list. She will keep track of who reponds and will try to distribute the requests more-or-less evenly among the volunteers. [Part 2 of 3] I'm on the list; I hope that you will join me. The Greeks had rather loose entrance qualifications for their Olympic Games -- they let _anyone_ compete (actually, any _man_), regardless of whether they were amateurs or professionals. They didn't seem to realize that the presence of pros might contaminate the Games. Being slow learners, they kept going this way for 292 Olympiads, ending in 394 A.D. Beginning in 1892, Baron Pierre de Coubertin of France initiated the idea of reviving the Olympic Games and eventually sold it to a group of Europeans and later to the rest of the world. Among his many inspirational remarks he said: "Peace would be furthered by the Olympic Games . . . but peace could be the product only of a better world; a better world could be brought about only by better individuals; and better individuals could be developed only by the give and take, the buffeting and battering, the stress and strain of fierce competition." However, he and his class-conscious colleagues made it clear that they intended this "give and take" not for common athletes who earned their living in sports but for the more genteel sort who, like themselves, could afford to be "amateurs." Coubertin's original concept also did not include competition for women, consistent with prevalent social views of the Victorian Era. The good Baron and his friends went on to form the International Olympic Committee, a self-perpetuating international body that controls the Olympic Games and eligibility standards for all sports to this day. While Coubertin accomplished quite a lot by conceiving and developing this spectacularly successful international sports reinvention, his ill-conceived attempt to keep out the riff-raff has done an enormous disservice not only to the Olympic movement but to the world of sports in general. Given the current trend back toward open competition, Coubertin's ideal of "amateurism" will be eradicated approximately on the centennial of its conception, but it will take somewhat longer to undo all the damage of working for 100 years with this bigoted idea. Support for the rigorous separation of professional and amateur athletes had begun to wane after World War II when it received renewed support from an unexpected direction. The Eastern Bloc countries, led by the Soviet Union, came to perceive international sports competition as a forum for demonstrating the superiority of their socialist system and made the Olympics a primary target. They devised a sports development program that allowed talented athletes to devote full time to their training while remaining "amateurs." Given that athletes in Western countries had to turn professional in order to substantially benefit from their abilities, it was clear that rigorous enforcement of amateurism regulations gave the Eastern Bloc a competitive advantage in ``amateur'' sports. For awhile Eastern members of the IOC received support from misguided Westerners of the old school, such as America's Avery Brundage. It is ironic that the concept of "amateurism," which began as a tool for class separation in a capitalist society, was ultimately sustained as a tool of socialist exploitation. Eventually, the Eastern and Western Blocs divided rather cleanly on this issue and the Westerners successfully conspired both to progressively loosen the eligibility regulations and to devise ways to support talented athletes in full-time training. Increasing numbers of professional athletes are being permitted to compete in the Olympics -- some in 1984, more in 1988, still more by 1992. This transition should be complete by the turn of the century. Les Earnest

PDheader:1987-07-13 16:28:00-07:00 67e11397df5091ceb46c88dbe4fdf402 ∂13-Jul-87 1628 REULING@Sushi.Stanford.EDU [Jim Lewinson <a.Jiml@GSB-WHY.Stanford.EDU>: "SMUG" BBoard] Received: from SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 13 Jul 87 16:28:11 PDT Date: Mon 13 Jul 87 16:22:49-PDT From: John Reuling <Reuling@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> Subject: [Jim Lewinson <a.Jiml@GSB-WHY.Stanford.EDU>: "SMUG" BBoard] To: Les@Sail.Stanford.EDU Office: Margaret Jacks Hall 030c, Stanford; 415/725-5555 Message-ID: <12318139792.11.REULING@Sushi.Stanford.EDU>

Do you have objections to the name SU-MAC? --------------- Return-Path: <@Score.Stanford.EDU:A.JIML@GSB-WHY.Stanford.EDU> Received: from Score.Stanford.EDU by Sushi.Stanford.EDU with TCP; Sun 12 Jul 87 21:33:35-PDT Received: from GSB-WHY.Stanford.EDU by SCORE.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; Sun 12 Jul 87 21:32:54-PDT Date: Sun 12 Jul 87 21:37:37-PDT From: Jim Lewinson <a.Jiml@GSB-WHY.Stanford.EDU> Subject: "SMUG" BBoard To: Reuling@Score.Stanford.EDU, Reges@Score.Stanford.EDU Message-ID: <12317934956.8.A.JIML@GSB-WHY.Stanford.EDU> A lot of people, including both myself and the SMUG Directors, feel that the SMUG BBoard should probably be renamed to something else, since it really has nothing to do with SMUG at this point. Something like SU-MAC would seem to be reasonable, since it is a local Mac BBoard, basically. SMUG now has an account on a machine, so we can hopefully change things so that mail to "SMUG" gets directed to the real SMUG, and set up the BBoard under the name of SU-MAC. I think the original concept was that the BBoard would get linked to the BBS, but that hasn't happened yet, and doesn't seem likely. Do either of you have any objection to this? Who else do you think we should involve in this? Does SU-MAC seem reasonable, or should we try for a better name? Maybe SU-MAC is a bad idea because people who do "BBOARD SU-*" will get it, and not really want it. But INFO-MAC-STANFORD is a direct list off of SUMEX, and INFO-MAC-LOCAL seems really bulky. I think the transition will not provide too many problems. There is very little traffic on the BBoard, and anything that ends up in SMUG's real electronic mailbox can easily get remailed, since we will have someone to read the mail on a regular basis. Jim ------- -------

PDheader:1987-07-13 16:54:00-07:00 82ba16d037f4972ae98acc8569e8da12 ∂13-Jul-87 1654 LES re: [Jim Lewinson <a.Jiml@GSB-WHY.Stanford.EDU>: "SMUG" BBoard] To: Reuling@SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Mon 13 Jul 87 16:22:49-PDT.]

I have no religious objections to the use of "SU-MAC," but it would complicate our lives a bit. For example, we would have to explicitly and repeatedly exempt it from our Guidelines. If it were to be integrated into the same structure as the existing SU-bboards, the name should be SU-COMPUTERS-MAC, which is just about as cumbersone as the current name. On the whole, this scheme would create some problems, though they are all surmountable. [Part 3 of 3] Les I regard a true sport to be a competition whose outcome is determined primarily by objective measures of performance, such as shortest time to cover a given distance, the longest throw of a certain object, or the most goals scored. I regard competitions whose outcome is determined primarily by subjective assessments of form, translated into scores, as performing arts, not sports. Admittedly, issues of "form" are important in many sports, but they are usually recognized negatively -- i.e. breaches of good form result in penalties that affect the outcome of the competition only indirectly. In performing arts, by contrast, the outcome is determined directly by assessment of form. With these definitions, the original Olympics consisted exclusively of true sports while the Modern Olympics include many performing arts. More of the latter are introduced each quadrennium. My view is that these different kinds of competition have little to do with each another and should be separated. I would propose that the Olympics be converted back into a true sports competition and that a different organization with a different name undertake the promotion of performing arts competition. To help fix ideas, here are some examples of each. Sports: Performing Arts: track and field gymnastics swimming races synchronized swimming water polo diving speed skating figure skating ski racing ice dancing wrestling boxing What? Boxing is not a sport? Actually, it isn't -- nearly all Olympic boxing matches are decided on a subjective scoring system rather than by the decisive KO. Even the latter is rather subjective, in that the referee may have to decide whether a "technical knockout" has occurred. Once the performing arts are separated from the Olympics, consideration should be given to integrating them with some existing international performing arts competitions, such as the Oscars, Emmys, Country Music Awards, and the Miss World/Miss Universe competitions. All that is needed to sell this idea, I believe, is a suitably zingy title for the new international performing arts competition. I offer a $100 prize to anyone who invents a suitable name and gets it adopted internationally. Summary Regarding the three issues that I have discussed, I believe that the problem of "amateurism" is well on the way to resolution, but the festering problem of nationalism in the Olympics may yet bring about the disintegration of this event. I would much prefer that the Olympics be restored to being a sports competition, rather than an ever-expanding forum for the performing arts, but I give this idea less of a chance than the Summer Games ending in a snowstorm. Les Earnest

PDheader:1987-07-16 15:06:00-07:00 4ef43c2812965742487d4f0cb260c5ab ∂16-Jul-87 1506 JOHNMARK@Sushi.Stanford.EDU [Mark Richer <RICHER@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU>: Re: Further clarification on "bboard SMUG" support] Received: from SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 16 Jul 87 15:06:22 PDT Date: Thu 16 Jul 87 14:48:24-PDT From: John Mark Agosta <JOHNMARK@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> Subject: [Mark Richer <RICHER@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU>: Re: Further clarification on "bboard SMUG" support] To: les@Sail.Stanford.EDU, reuling@Sushi.Stanford.EDU, reges@Sushi.Stanford.EDU cc: : ; Message-ID: <12318909036.15.JOHNMARK@Sushi.Stanford.EDU>

This suggestion has been chewed over on "smug" - and there seems to be agreement to make change its name to SU-MACINTOSH. Are there any place else opinions should be sought? Is one of you able, then, to make the change? -johnmark --------------- Return-Path: <@Score.Stanford.EDU:RICHER@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU> Received: from Score.Stanford.EDU by Sushi.Stanford.EDU with TCP; Mon 13 Jul 87 21:50:14-PDT Received: from SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU by SCORE.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; Mon 13 Jul 87 21:49:30-PDT Date: Mon, 13 Jul 87 21:52:54 PDT From: Mark Richer <RICHER@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU> Subject: Re: Further clarification on "bboard SMUG" support To: aboba%PORTIA.STANFORD.EDU@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU cc: smug@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU In-Reply-To: Message from "Bernard Aboba <aboba@portia.Stanford.EDU>" of Sat, 27 Jun 87 12:41:53 PDT Message-ID: <12318199880.11.RICHER@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU> I think we should combine the name suggestions SU--MAC and MACINTOSH and call the bboard SU-MACINTOSH. the SU convention is widely used on campus and I think it should be followed in this case as well. Mar ------- ------- Les,

PDheader:1987-07-16 15:49:00-07:00 e10ba55f7c02ba5d015211b4b9fd41cf ∂16-Jul-87 1549 REULING@Sushi.Stanford.EDU Re: [Mark Richer <RICHER@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU>: Re: Further clarification on "bboard SMUG" support] Received: from SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 16 Jul 87 15:49:16 PDT Date: Thu 16 Jul 87 15:43:46-PDT From: John Reuling <Reuling@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> Subject: Re: [Mark Richer <RICHER@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU>: Re: Further clarification on "bboard SMUG" support] To: JOHNMARK@Sushi.Stanford.EDU cc: les@Sail.Stanford.EDU, reges@Sushi.Stanford.EDU,

nakata@Portia.Stanford.EDU, a.jiml@GSB-HOW.Stanford.EDU In-Reply-To: <12318909036.15.JOHNMARK@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> Office: Margaret Jacks Hall 030c, Stanford; 415/725-5555 Message-ID: <12318919113.7.REULING@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> I've been discussing this with Les Earnest, Lance Nakata, and Jim Lewinson. I'd very much prefer to have the bboard called either MAC or MACINTOSH, leaving the SU-* names only for those bboards that go to almost all of the machines on campus. In the case of LOTS, that would leave three bboards related to the Mac: INFO-MAC MACINTOSH or MAC (local) MAC-SUNDRY (mac articles from USENET and elsewhere). Thanks much for your informative and entertaining essays on the Olympics. I've read quite a bit about the Olympic games in the past few days, but nothing has taught me as much as your postings did. I totally agree with your ideas on nationalism and amateurism (although I have to admit I tend to root for US athletes more often than not). I'm still unsure how I feel about performing arts. I've often had the same ideas that you have -- remove all subjectively judged events from the games. I mean, if skating and diving are Olympic sports, why not ballet, disco dancing, piano playing, and drum and bugle corps competition? All of these have a certain athletic component and a certain artistic component. On the other hand, I often feel that these events should be left in for a couple of reasons: 1) I love watching some of them: skating, gymnastics, and (especially) diving. While you could take them out into a separate competition, that would lessen the Olympic "event" (especially the Winter Olympics). This is obviously a very "sentimental" feeling on my part. 2) There's actually a continuum of degrees of subjective and objective judging for different sports. Boxing, for example, seems to be a little less subjective than figure skating, since there is no artistic component and the scoring is based on something more tangible (punches landed). Ski jumping, which I believe has a small style component, seems less subjective than boxing. Baseball and basketball, while based on goals scored, have a great deal of subjective judging (balls and strikes in baseball and fouls in basketball are VERY subjective). Soccer and hockey seem slightly less subjective, and even track events have a small amount of subjectivity in their judging -- indicated by the controversy over Ben Johnson's start when he set the 100m record. Instead of eliminating artistic events, I'd rather see them eliminate some of the events which either 1) seem to show little or no athletic ability or 2) are cheap rehashes or combinations of other events. Among them are: * Bobsledding - 4 guys run for 3 seconds and then crouch as low as they can for a minute (with one doing a little steering). How is this different from auto racing? * Luge - a little better than bobsledding, but still seems "forced". * Biathlon - cross-country skiing and marksmanship - a natural combination * Rifle and archery - shows steadiness, but so do card house building and pick-up-sticks. * Ice dancing, rhythmic gymnastics, and synchronized swimming - 'nuff said. * Equestrian events - why not horse racing, too? Well, I didn't intend to make my reply this long. I mainly just wanted to thank you for your postings. Michael

PDheader:1987-07-17 11:35:00-07:00 b98c10db1b1ed9dd31a069e3b9e99043 ∂17-Jul-87 1135 JOHNMARK@Sushi.Stanford.EDU Re: naming the Stanford Mac bboard. Received: from SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 17 Jul 87 11:35:22 PDT Date: Fri 17 Jul 87 11:29:55-PDT From: John Mark Agosta <JOHNMARK@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> Subject: Re: naming the Stanford Mac bboard. To: Reuling@Sushi.Stanford.EDU cc: les@Sail.Stanford.EDU, reges@Sushi.Stanford.EDU,

nakata@Portia.Stanford.EDU, a.jiml@GSB-HOW.Stanford.EDU In-Reply-To: <12318919113.7.REULING@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: <12319135047.10.JOHNMARK@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> John - I'm glad you all are taking action on this. I can see your desire to keep the SU-* names pure - they are the progeny of the original su-bboards. However , weigh that against the clarity of the name - SU-MAC, or SU-MACINTOSH is clearly of local origin, MACINTOSH is not and even worse, currently denotes a *non-local* source on lots. IS there any functional reason not to extend the SU-* set to other local sources, rather than a traditional or historical reason? -johnmark ------- Several years ago, we installed a cat door in our house, to give our pets greater freedom. A little while later we noticed that our Siamese seemed to be eating more than the usual amount of crunchy cat food and was dragging the bag around the room more than usual. She also seemed to be quite agitated at times and would hide for no apparent reason. One night I thought I heard her crunching her food in the next room, but when I looked up I saw that she was stretched across the top of my warm computer terminal. I wondered who was eating the cat food? I walked into the kitchen, turned on the light, and nearly stepped on a little black and white creature, who appeared startled but not disturbed by this encounter. In fact, he continued eating, with relish. After examining my options, I retreated into the bedroom area and closed the hall door, leaving the skunk a clear path to depart through the cat door. Thereafter, we began closing the cat door except when we were nearby, thinking that this would deter further nocturnal raids. Alas, a few nights later the skunk reentered when my wife was in the kitchen and brushed against her leg on the way to the catfood, precipitating another tense situation. Finally, one night we were watching television in the family room when the skunk marched in and headed for the kitchen. At this point, I decided to tough it out. I stomped across the room as loudly as possible and cornered the creature under the grand piano. I continued to make a great deal of noise until it retreated back through the cat door, which I then locked. The skunk expressed his dismay at this turn of events by repeatedly scraping on the screen door, letting us know how much he wanted to come in. This went on for more than a half hour. It was clear that he really loved that crunchy cat food. At that point, we removed the cat door. A few years later, after consulting with an animal expert, we reinstalled it in a window. It turns out that cats don't mind jumping up to a window ledge, but skunks can't make it. We have had no problems since.

PDheader:1987-07-20 19:52:00-07:00 75a283dc91f4977528f470ff368f59f7 ∂20-Jul-87 1952 LES re: naming the Stanford Mac bboard. To: JOHNMARK@SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU CC: Reuling@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Fri 17 Jul 87 11:29:55-PDT.]

With respect to the idea of creating SU-MAC, the basic issue is that there are a set of guidelines that apply to SU-bboards and, to avoid misunderstandings and administrative complexity, we do not wish to have to qualify those guidelines (e.g. "not applicable to SU-MAC"). Thus, if SU-MAC is created, it must be subject to the same guidelines (e.g. postings of a given message to more than one SU-bboard are discouraged). Following this approach, SU-MAC would be a logical subdivision of SU-COMPUTERS that would be kept in a separate bboard. If this approach makes sense to you, then we can do it. If not, then I suggest that you use a different bboard name to avoid confusion. Les Earnest Les

PDheader:1987-07-28 18:12:00-07:00 5bfea0cbc2913f3fc8bc476a56b61e40 ∂28-Jul-87 1812 LES re: Electrical CAD tools, especially for MAC To: jbn@GLACIER.STANFORD.EDU CC: su-computers@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Tue, 28 Jul 87 10:18:10 PDT.]

SUDS, which was developed here and runs on SAIL, is the father of CADroid and was used by DEC to design essentially all their equipment for about 10 years. It allows you to interactively design both logic diagrams and corresponding PC boards and shows you the differences. Learning to use it is not easy, however. SUDS used to produce artwork directly on the Alphatype, but since that went away the only way to make artwork now is to take a tape to one of the commercial Gerber plotters. Lyn Bowman says: > Les is imprecise, if not wrong, in blaming the Romans for destroying > Olympia. I said nothing about destroying Olympia, just shutting down the Olympics. The Olympic Games were ended in A.D. 395 by Roman Emperor Theosius, who alleged that they were corrupt. > At least one Roman emperor competed in the Olympic games. That was Emperor Nero, about A.D. 60. He was about as good as an Olympic athlete as he was at providing musical accompanyment for firefighting. In a subsequent message, Lyn says: > My inclination to tell Les to "Stuff it!" is directed at his moralist > tone rather than at his particular suggestions. Tch tch, such ingratitude. Even though I categorized Lyn's second favorite activitiy (boxing) as being in the same class as the Miss America contest, he doesn't seem to like it. Next thing you know, he will be trying to convince us that his most favorite activity is also a sport. > I very much disagree about Les' idiosyncratic dislike of what he calls > the performing arts in the Olympics. Lyn is leaping to conclusions, as usual. Where did I say that I "dislike" performing arts. I have no desire to eliminate these activities; I simply wish to recognize that they are not true sports, that performing arts competitions have a different character than sports events, and that performing arts competitions should be organized separately. In order to make a clear distinction between sports and performing arts, recognizing that there are subjective elements in the officiating of both, I would call any event in which the principal officials' decisions are made instantly and publicly a sport, while those in which the judges scores are revealed only at the end are performing arts. Scores in performing arts are usually totalled from those of multiple judges, whereas in sports each decision is usually (not always) made by a single person. By these criteria, baseball is a sport and boxing is a performing art (though a relatively ugly one). Les Earnest

PDheader:1987-07-28 20:12:00-07:00 f67d7af00475677ed2c849b1a502f6aa ∂28-Jul-87 2012 LES ALTAIR wanted To: su-computers@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU

An exhibit is being assembled on "The Past, Present and Future of Personal Computers," to be presented during August 21 through September 7. The organizers would like to have an Altair computer to display, or at least a photograph of one. If you can help, please contact either Jane Laidley or Sally Taylor of PCC at (415) 830-4200.

PDheader:1987-07-28 23:11:00-07:00 ea5471e8098e378ba963598213d47e5b ∂28-Jul-87 2311 jbn@glacier.stanford.edu re: Electrical CAD tools, especially for MAC Received: from GLACIER.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 28 Jul 87 23:11:47 PDT Received: by glacier.stanford.edu; Tue, 28 Jul 87 23:12:40 PDT Date: Tue, 28 Jul 87 23:12:40 PDT From: John B. Nagle <jbn@glacier.stanford.edu> Subject: re: Electrical CAD tools, especially for MAC To: LES@sail.stanford.edu, jbn@glacier.stanford.edu Cc: su-computers@sail.stanford.edu

Don't you have something from the current decade? If I have to do this out at Foothill, it's going to be embarassing. John Nagle

PDheader:1987-07-29 00:19:00-07:00 60df34e9ea792d3ed75274b6bb8fd784 ∂29-Jul-87 0019 LES re: Electrical CAD tools, especially for MAC To: jbn@GLACIER.STANFORD.EDU CC: su-computers@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Tue, 28 Jul 87 23:12:40 PDT.]

If you believe that "newer is better," then you obviously have not been keeping track of developments in the CAD field. You have my permission to be embarassed at Foothill or anywhere else you choose. Les Earnest

PDheader:1987-07-29 10:41:00-07:00 6883cdd23cb8ffe1b2bdc7e0f49d3538 ∂29-Jul-87 1041 CHIU@Sushi.Stanford.EDU re: Electrical CAD tools, especially for MAC Received: from SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 29 Jul 87 10:41:12 PDT Date: Wed 29 Jul 87 10:37:36-PDT From: Chan Chiu <CHIU@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> Subject: re: Electrical CAD tools, especially for MAC To: LES@Sail.Stanford.EDU In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>" of Wed 29 Jul 87 00:19:00-PDT Message-ID: <12322271251.20.CHIU@Sushi.Stanford.EDU>

SUDS's shadow is still very alive inside DEC. SUDS is the grandparent of a CAD system used now inside DEC for next generation VAX component VLSI design. I also heard that before Valid Logic was started Its founders worked on SUDS here at Stanford. It's sad to see Berkeley getting ahead in CAD areas in while Stanford had nothing after SUDS. That's a great story, Les!! CC I'm not at all surprised though. In general, skunks are pretty mellow critters, and tame trivially. You tamed yours without intending to, of course... A raccoon would have been much harder to deal with. -------

PDheader:1987-07-29 11:55:00-07:00 be1d9f64cc67554e66e8034b2a27738d ∂29-Jul-87 1155 LES re: Electrical CAD tools, especially for MAC To: CHIU@SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Wed 29 Jul 87 10:37:36-PDT.]

Actually, the Valid Logic founders were SUDS users who added some additional software that facilitated hierarchical (top-down) design of computer systems. The resulting system was called SCALD, which is basically what Valid Logic sells.

PDheader:1987-10-03 23:14:00-07:00 269fe2f47d753f57ab1d145bb999404c ∂03-Oct-87 2314 LES re: RECENT SU-ETC STATISTICS To: su-etc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU [In reply to message sent Fri, 2 Oct 87 12:55:07 PDT.]

PDheader:1987-10-04 11:22:00-07:00 4b3e4a48690c22eac3841b982957b7a7 ∂04-Oct-87 1122 ANDY@Sushi.Stanford.EDU The BBoard Statistician Received: from SUSHI.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 4 Oct 87 11:22:35 PDT Date: Sun 4 Oct 87 11:22:24-PDT From: Andy Freeman <ANDY@Sushi.Stanford.EDU> Subject: The BBoard Statistician To: les@Sail.Stanford.EDU Message-ID: <12339843055.25.ANDY@Sushi.Stanford.EDU>

I asked him about this a couple of years ago. He started right after he complained that su-bboards was being used for a purpose other than that it was intended for, that the "flamers" and other people who posted messages with no official content had corrupted it. Of course it turned out that he hadn't done any research into bboard history and he was offended that I suggested that such research was relevant. The statistics were (and may still be) intended to humiliate/embarrass (I forget which word he used). No, I don't know why he reads su-etc. (He may not read it, yet still gather statistics.) I do think that there should be moderated bboards for official announcements, but it is obvious to most that su-etc doesn't serve that purpose.

PDheader:1987-10-06 18:21:00-07:00 364b9c85cc6053f4902d3a556e062efc ∂06-Oct-87 1821 LES re: Definition? To: COMBS@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU CC: su-etc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU [In reply to message sent Tue, 6 Oct 87 13:39:36 PDT.]

Dave Combs says: > If an atheist is someone who does not believe in the existence of God > (of whatever form), and an agnostic is someone who has doubts and is > waiting for evidence, what is the term for someone who believes that > the (non)existence of God is irrelevant (i.e. whether or not God exists > has no effect whatsoever on how they conduct themselves)? How about "irrelevant." :-) Actually, there is at least one other class -- those who believe in God and are against Him. We call ourselves "antitheists." It is a very comforting philosophy in that whenever things go wrong it is His fault and whenever something good happens, it is because We did it. Here is a curious bit of Olympic history on how "amateurism" can be used as a tool for support of nationalism. The organizers of the 1904 Olympics, which were held in St. Louis during the Worlds Fair, held a number of cycling events. Inasmuch as St. Louis was a long way from other parts of the world at that time, very few foreign cyclists showed up. The Americans, who were probably the strongest nation in the world in cycling then, essentially shut out everyone else. Nevertheless, the International Cycling Union and the International Olympic Committee refused (and still refuse) to recognize the results of those Olympic events. It was clear that the Europeans who controlled the IOC and UCI were embarrassed by the poor showing of their athletes. They sought a "reason" and found a pretext: that the 1904 Olympic cycling events included professionals. In fact, they did not. There _were_ professional cycling races held during the Worlds Fair, but on different days than the Olympic events. That degree of proximity was enough for the Europeans to "explain" their poor showing, so the entire Olympic cycling results were vacated. Les Les Earnest

PDheader:1987-11-06 09:10:00-08:00 b105d8cb8679f341354ca1f1faf4313c ∂06-Nov-87 0910 REULING@Score.Stanford.EDU HLP:SU-BBOARDS.HLP Received: from SCORE.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; 6 Nov 87 09:10:35 PST Date: Fri 6 Nov 87 09:05:14-PST From: John Reuling <Reuling@Score.Stanford.EDU> Subject: HLP:SU-BBOARDS.HLP To: les@Score.Stanford.EDU Office: Stanford Medical School Office Bldg X232; 415/723-3406 Message-ID: <12348479757.38.REULING@Score.Stanford.EDU>

SU BBoards is an electronic bulletin board system that interconnects dozens of computers and hundreds of users at Stanford. It is divided into topical bboards, as listed just below. A given message should go to JUST ONE of these bboards. In ambiguous cases, choose the closest fit and post a pointer message on your second choice, e.g "See my message about <subject> on SU-<bboard>." SU-MARKET - things for sale, "Where do I buy X?", comments on products, merchants and service providers, e.g. "Who is a good dentist?"; SU-JOBS - jobs wanted or offered; SU-EVENTS - announcements of seminars, concerts and other events inside and outside Stanford; ticket offers and requests go to SU-MARKET; SU-COMPUTERS - comments on computer services, "How do you do X on system Y?"; discussion of SU BBoards policies; no ads for computer products -- they go to SU-MARKET; SU-MACINTOSH - discussion of the Macintosh computer, its software, and its use at Stanford; SU-ETC - everything else. Some systems use different names for these bboards; e.g. names of the form su.xxxx are used on most Unix systems. Check local documentation or your system manager for reading and posting information. If your computer does not accept direct postings to these bboards, you can post via other computers such as Score, SAIL, or Sushi using electronic mail (e.g. send to su-market@Score.Stanford.EDU). SU-BBOARDS@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU remains a valid address. Such messages will be manually screened and forwarded to the appropriate list. This service is provided for posters from outside Stanford and others who might be unsure about which bboard is most appropriate for their message. If there are local bboards that reach your intended audience, please use them instead of posting to the SU BBoards. Here are some important ones: CSD@Score - Computer Science Department GSB@How - Graduate School of Business BBOARD@Lear - LOTS. Such postings are automatically forwarded to bboards of the same name on certain other machines within the same organization. Protocols In posting a message to one of these bboards, remember that it will be seen by a large number of people. In order to avoid wasting their time, please use the following guidelines. BE CONCISE. State your point, support it as needed, and stop. INCLUDE A "SUBJECT:" LINE if your mail program supports this. FORMAT your message with no more then 79 characters on a line -- otherwise it will disappear off the edge of the screen on some systems. BE ACCURATE. Check your message for accuracy and spelling before releasing it and be sure you send it to the right bboard. NO CORRECTIONS. Do not send corrections to postings unless there is likelihood of serious misunderstanding. Do not correct spelling errors but do feel embarrassed about them. If you posted to the wrong bboard, resend it to the correct one and be prepared to receive private complaints about the double posting. Accept them gracefully. NO APOLOGIES. If you make an error, do not post an apology. Deal with any resulting problems privately. NO "TEST" MESSAGES. If you're not sure whether your messages are being posted correctly, please contact SU-BB@Score. Do not post test messages. In responding to postings by others, please do the following. USE PERSONAL MESSAGES unless you are reasonably sure that what you have to say will be of general interest to the bboard readers. BE POLITE even if the person you are responding to was not. If you feel upset, wait until the feeling passes. Reread the offending message to be sure that you are not misinterpreting it. If you feel that you must use strong language, do so only in personal mail, not on the bboard. OVERLOOK MINOR ERRORS. Remember that not everyone posting on the bboards is proficient in English and many can't spel wel. If you see a consistent mispelling and wish to help avoid future embarrassment, send a private message. If you: (a) receive a mailer error back from a message sent to one of the SU-bboards, (b) wish to call attention to an operating problem in these bboards, (c) would like to add an additional computer to the recipients list for one or more of these bboards, or (d) have comments on these guidelines, please send a message to SU-BB@Score.Stanford.EDU. These people are currently maintaining the SU Bboards distribution lists: Les Earnest <Les@Sail.Stanford.Edu> John Reuling <Reuling@Score.Stanford.Edu> Carl Schaefer <Carlos@CSLI.Stanford.Edu> A copy of these guidelines will be reposted every 30 days on SU-COMPUTERS and should be retained on each participating system in a "help" file. This message is available on Score.Stanford.Edu as HLP:SU-BBOARDS.HLP.

PDheader:1987-12-03 16:56:00-08:00 a90c27207fcf5203a4e373f3fecf8c3a ∂03-Dec-87 1656 LES Arpanet bboard To: grosz@HARVARD.HARVARD.EDU [In reply to message sent Thu, 3 Dec 87 16:34:29 EST.]

Postings for general distribution should be sent to Arpanet-BBoards@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU. As Nils probably mentioned, our last two postings there were grossly delayed at MIT (one to two months), so you likely should harass them until it appears. Pandora Berman (617 253-1729 or -6765) has something to do with their operation, but the person who actually did the forwarding the last time I checked was Rob Austein (phone # unknown). Point of information: don't mention any salary figures; the MIT folks have the misimpression that such things can't be mentioned on Arpanet, but instead of telling you that, they will simply sit on it.

PDheader:1988-02-29 16:11:00-08:00 82db7488d783fda61bd91402c881f930 ∂29-Feb-88 1611 Mailer Olympic nationalism To: su-etc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>

PDheader:1988-02-29 18:08:00-08:00 cb6bae228e2fc6bee10bcd765192195c ∂29-Feb-88 1808 Mailer Olympic "amateurism" To: su-etc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>

PROHIBITION ON COVERT ASSISTANCE FOR MILITARY OPERATIONS IN NICARAGUA Sec. 801. (a) None of the funds appropriated for fiscal year 1983 or 1984 for the Central Intelligence Agency or any other department, agency, or entity of the United States involved in intelligence activites may be obligated or expended for the purpose or which would have the effect of supporting, directly or indirectly, military or paramillitary operations in Nicaragua by any nation, group, organization, movement, or individual. (b) This section shall take effect upon the date prescribed in the classified annex to the report of the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence of the House of Representatives to accompany the bill H.R. 2760 (98th Congress). AUTHORIZATION OF OVERT INTERDICTION ASSISTANCE Sec. 802. (a) The Congress finds that-- (1) in the absence of a state of declared war, the provision of military equipment to individuals, groups, organizations, or movements seeking to overthrow governments of countries in Central America violates international treaty obligations, including the Charter of the United Nations, the Charter of the Organization of American States, and the Rio Treaty of 1949; and (2) such activities by the Governments of Cuba and Nicaragua threaten the independence of El Salvador and threaten to destabilize the entire Central American region, and the Governments of Cuba and Nicaragua refuse to cease those activities. (b) The President is authorized to furnish assistance, on such terms and conditions as he may determine, to the government of any friendly country in Central America in order to provide such country with the ability to prevent use of its territory, or to prevent to the extent permitted by international law the use of international territroy, for the transfer of military equipment from or through Cuba or Nicaragua or any other country or agents of that country to any individual, group, organization, or movement which the President determines seek to overthrow the government of such friendly country or the government of any other country in Central America. Assistance under this section shall be provided openly, and shall not be provided in a manner which attempts to conceal United States involvement in the provision of such assistance. (c) Assistance may be provided to a friendly foreign country under this section only if that country has agreed that it will not use any assistance provided by the United States under this secton, the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961, or the Arms Export Control Act to destablilize or overthrow the government of any country in Central America and will not make any such assistance available to any nation, individual, group, organization, or movement which seeks to destabilize or overthrow any such government. (d) At least 15 days before providing assistance to a foreign country under this section, the President shall submit an unclassified report which describes the proposed assistance to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and to the chairman of the appropriate committees of the Senate. (e) There is authorized to be appropriated to the President to carry out this section $30,000,000 for the fiscal year 1983 and $50,000,000 for the fiscal year 1984. (f) Funds to carry out this section shall be made available for any friendly country in Central America only for the purpose of interdicting the transfer of military equipment to any country in Central America. -------

PDheader:1988-02-29 18:10:00-08:00 9c7013d6bdc6bac8540502a8dc4cbc65 ∂29-Feb-88 1810 Mailer Performing arts in the Olympics To: su-etc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>

PDheader:1988-03-01 00:31:00-08:00 5573b7b1accb7b9090c62e46c560030c ∂01-Mar-88 0031 mjw@polya.stanford.edu Re: Performing arts in the Olympics Received: from polya.stanford.edu by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 1 Mar 88 00:30:57 PST Received: by polya.stanford.edu (5.54/inc-1.2) id AA17802; Tue, 1 Mar 88 00:31:13 PST Date: Tue, 1 Mar 88 00:31:13 PST From: mjw@polya.stanford.edu (Michael Wolverton) Message-Id: <8803010831.AA17802@polya.stanford.edu> To: LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU Subject: Re: Performing arts in the Olympics Newsgroups: su.etc In-Reply-To: <17547@labrea.STANFORD.EDU> Organization: Stanford University Cc:

PDheader:1988-03-01 13:46:00-08:00 507ced8249e16ffffa16d15ad88be974 ∂01-Mar-88 1346 LES re: Performing arts in the Olympics To: mjw@POLYA.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Tue, 1 Mar 88 00:31:13 PST.]

Michael, Thanks for your remarks. I too enjoy watching the performing arts and would not like to have them go away. I also want to continue to attend the cinema and watch good television dramas. I just think that the Olympics are getting too large, ponderous, and out-of-focus. If one wishes to make a clear distinction between sports and performing arts, recognizing that there are subjective elements in the officiating of both, I would call any event in which the principal officials' decisions are made instantly and publicly a sport, while those in which the judges scores are revealed only at the end are performing arts. Scores in performing arts are usually totalled from those of multiple judges, whereas in sports each decision is usually (not always) made by a single person. By these criteria, baseball is a sport and boxing is a performing art (though an ugly one). I'd be happy to make the necessary changes on Score/Sushi and the LOTS machines. Les -John -------

PDheader:1988-03-01 15:04:00-08:00 c308fb268997feb34c706324c6556d9e ∂01-Mar-88 1504 Mailer re: Raccoon living in the campus To: su-etc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>

PDheader:1988-03-01 15:49:00-08:00 de41e435d4c7ec6a5026ec6eeb20b06e ∂01-Mar-88 1549 Mailer re: Olympics To: su-etc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>

PDheader:1988-03-01 16:37:00-08:00 19b5f1919cfad7686d466b84af31d15a ∂01-Mar-88 1637 CRISPIN@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU re: Raccoon living in the campus Received: from SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 1 Mar 88 16:37:36 PST Date: Tue, 1 Mar 88 16:15:32 PST From: Mark Crispin <Crispin@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU> Subject: re: Raccoon living in the campus To: LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>" of Tue, 1 Mar 88 15:04:00 PST Postal-Address: 1802 Hackett Ave.; Mountain View, CA 94043-4431 Phone: +1 (415) 968-1052 Message-ID: <12378966797.44.CRISPIN@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU>

PDheader:1988-03-01 18:02:00-08:00 551b806c151a6a8d39246bc41688ad0d ∂01-Mar-88 1802 Mailer re: Olympics and amateurism To: su-etc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>

I agree with your sentiments. Of course, it is unlikely that a new CAD system will arise here without a complementary computer design project. [In reply to message sent Tue 1 Mar 88 14:29:12-PST.] Les Greg Scott asks: > So what are the rules regarding amateurism in the Olympics today? I > read that several of the hockey teams had NHL players competing. The International Olympic Committee's formerly stringent regulation on "amateurism," namely Rule 26, was changed in 1982 so that it now discusses only "eligibility" and leaves the reponsibility for determining eligibility up to the international governing body for each sport. Several of these organizations, including hockey, now permit professional athletes to compete, though some include an odd age discrimination clause, such as "all professionals must be younger than age 23." While many of the Olympic hockey teams included pros, for some reason the U.S. squad apparently didn't. Probably another case of U.S. sports officials trying to live in the past. Some sports have simply blurred the boundary between amateurs and pros. For example, the International Cycling Union has delegated the establishment of elegibility regulations to the national governing bodies, with a stipulation that they must publish their regulations. The U.S. Cycling Federation set the maximum winnings to $1000 per athlete per day for awhile (up from $200), but I talked them into making it $2000/day beginning January 1 of this year. In addition to winnings, athletes may also receive full expenses, though only the top cyclists have sponsors that will cover that. It is not clear at what level the International Cycling Union will become squeamish, but we may find out eventually. Greg also remarks: > Some of the athletes were also [doing] commercials before they competed. > Are there any rules left? It has been permissible for athletes to appear in commercials for a long time, but if they wish to maintain elegibility for the Olympics or other "amateur" events, there must be a contract that has been approved either by the USOC or their national governing body. These sports organizations usually take a piece of the action on the order of 10% and make the rest available to the athlete in the form of a trust fund that can be used to pay expenses of training and competition, or can be taken outright when they turn pro. TELEPHONE the San Francisco offices of Alan Cranston (415-556-8440) and Pete Wilson (415-556-4307); Les Earnest WRITE to either senator c/o Senate Office Bldg, Washington, DC 20510.

PDheader:1988-03-01 18:43:00-08:00 163df3d9944969313acf7fecc4846fb1 ∂01-Mar-88 1843 L.LEE-Y@OTHELLO.STANFORD.EDU re: Olympics Received: from OTHELLO.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 1 Mar 88 18:43:43 PST Date: Tue 1 Mar 88 18:42:07-PST From: Yvonne Lee <L.LEE-Y@OTHELLO.STANFORD.EDU> Subject: re: Olympics To: LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>" of Tue 1 Mar 88 15:49:00-PST Message-ID: <12378993481.19.L.LEE-Y@OTHELLO.STANFORD.EDU>

Does anyone find the regular publishing of bboard authorship statistics useful or interesting? General frequencies are readily apparent to the casual reader, but content is what matters. Posting such number suggests that the writers are engaged in some kind of competition; if anyone takes that idea seriously, there will be a lot of losers -- the bboard readers. For those who are compulsive statistics-gatherers, I suggest counting and reporting letter or word frequencies, or perhaps an analysis of time-of-day distributions for postings. Les Earnest I am a track & field writer and I found your comments on the Olympics quite interesting. Your plea against nationalism was interesting, but I doubt that it is feasible. Hard-core Olympic sports fans, like the people at _Track & Field News_ are going to follow Olympic sports for the sake of the performances, but most people only care about their national heroes. Jackie Joyner's victory in the World Championship long jump was important to track fans because she beat the co-World Record holder, but it was important to ABC because she beat an East German. The networks present Olympic sports to the masses, and they set the tone. Nationalism is a lot easier to display than performances. Ben Johnson's defeat of Carl Lewis appeared around the world. The pictures showed a Canadian defeating a famous American. The pictures would have been similar whether the times were 9.83 and 9.93 (they were) or 9.93 and 10.93. Olympic sports in this country are unpopular enough. If the nationalism were somehow obliterated, only the hardcore would watch, sponsorship would decrease and these sports would decline even more (if you thought the Winter Games were a disappointment, wait till Seoul.) In your argument regarding amateurism, you are correct in stating that de Cubertin's ideal rested on class distinctions. The wealthy did not want to mix with the workers. They justified amateurism by saying that those who worked with their hands had an "unfair advantage." Grace Kelly's father was at one time considered a professional because he was a bricklayer. Today, the concept of amateurism seems silly in light of the open movements in other sports (tennis, for example). Yet, I saw a news poll (not scientific) the other day where most of the respondents said that professionals should not be allowed in the Olympics -- I fail to understand why for the most part. Why shouldn't a Carl Lewis or an Edwin Moses be paid as well as a John Elway or a Jim Plunkett (or John McEnroe or Ralph Sampson to get out of football's injury argument)? On the other hand, Moses, himself made an interesting comment in France's _L'Equipe_ magazine. He said that the Olympic movement is an international movement and that it would hurt Third World athletes if those from developed countries were allowed to be professionals. It's an interesting argument, but I don't know how valid it is. People like Billy Konchella (Kenya) and Innocent Egbunike (Nigeria) can train to be top athletes, in part because and American school has decided to fund them. Anyway, I ramble. . . -------

PDheader:1988-03-02 16:10:00-08:00 56ca9ff1ce41ff8e644ae2e1bc501f93 ∂02-Mar-88 1610 LES re: Olympics To: L.LEE-Y@OTHELLO.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Tue 1 Mar 88 18:42:07-PST.]

Thanks for your remarks. It is clear that non-nationalistic Olympics would be much lower-key events. I believe that this would be much better for the world of sports, though it would mean some loss of financial support initially. I am realistic enough to realize that changes of the sort I am advocating will not be seriously considered until the situation gets much worse. My expectation is that we will not have long to wait. There is a great deal of nonsensical baggage being carried by modern Olympic athletes. The fact that most of them seem to want to carry it simply reflects the fact that they share their values with their home societies. As we know, those values can change rather quickly when people perceive that they lead to degeneracy that the system isn't coping with. I hope that they will be sophisticated enough to realize that the real villain is rampant nationalism, _not_ "those other people." If they do not understand this, then the situation will get much worse. As for the amateurism issue, it is clear that Baron de Coubertin's century-old selling job is still alive and well. Modern support for "amateurism" in this country seems to arise from some combination of admiration of youth and purity, distrust of sophistication, and support for the underdog. If you are in a position to help educate the public about the _real_ issues, you should consider trying to do so.

PDheader:1988-03-02 16:58:00-08:00 8c78f285f6c7597722989b9e8f25c245 ∂02-Mar-88 1658 Mailer An old Olympic ripoff To: su-etc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>

-andy -------

PDheader:1988-03-06 12:43:00-08:00 b98d94aee2568ddb010245b8edbba4ad ∂06-Mar-88 1243 L.LEE-Y@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU re: Olympics Received: from LEAR.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 6 Mar 88 12:43:47 PST Date: Sun 6 Mar 88 12:42:13-PST From: Yvonne Lee <L.LEE-Y@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU> Subject: re: Olympics To: LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>" of Wed 2 Mar 88 16:10:00-PST Message-ID: <12380238684.217.L.LEE-Y@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU>

Hey, you seem intelligent and some of your remarks, particularly those concerning nationalism, are worthy of a bigger forum. I don't know what sports you are interested in, but perhaps you should send some to _Track & Field News_ (and to the national magazines of other Olympic sports). They'll pass your letter around amongst the editorial staff members. At worst, they'll just stick it in the letters to the editor section. At best, they'll use the letter for the monthly "We Think" column. Send a letter to: Track & Field News P.O. Box 296 Los Altos, CA 94022 -------

PDheader:1988-03-07 22:48:00-08:00 a310c4f0170dcd4780bb3b8f5efff537 ∂07-Mar-88 2248 LES re: Olympics To: L.LEE-Y@LEAR.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Sun 6 Mar 88 12:42:13-PST.]

Good luck. -Les My sport is cycling, but perhaps I should take your suggestion. Guess I should pick up a copy of Track & Field News to get a feeling for their style.

PDheader:1988-04-09 19:42:00-07:00 da740ec1561567b48e6db3356165439e ∂09-Apr-88 1942 Mailer Citizens arrest To: su-etc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>

First, I'm not a lawyer, so don't believe anything I say. I believe that one does not need to be a citizen to make a "citizens arrest." It's just a name. I made the same mistake in writing the U.S. national bike racing rules: I called events open to the public "citizens races." Next thing I knew, some organizers were requiring proof of citizenship in order to enter these races! I now plan to proposed a name change, to "public races." I am a strong believer in letting the police do the arresting in cases where they can handle it, but as I mentioned in an earlier posting, they don't handle trespassing cases; at least the Palo Alto police won't. I made citizens arrests of a couple of dozen people for trespassing and it all went quite smoothely. I never had to appear in court, which probably meant that the fines were too low. Les Earnest

PDheader:1988-04-09 20:27:00-07:00 7ac5f07c35e7d9b027c52adca929ba12 ∂09-Apr-88 2027 Mailer re: Citizens arrest To: su-etc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>

JMC says: > The other possibility is that the cases were > dismissed at the request of the prosecutor. Possible but not likely. In any case, this move was quite effective. Whereas there were hordes of off-road vehicles on the land shortly after that pasttime became popular in the early '70s and they ignored me when I simply asked them to stop, within two weeks after I started arresting people, the flow became a dribble. I noticed that the High School kids' internal communications were particularly effective: I didn't see any more of them after two days of arrests.

PDheader:1988-04-15 13:59:00-07:00 e55c212fc9b1f15e0557560caa93dce0 ∂15-Apr-88 1359 Mailer re: BUY FROM CRISPIN, GO TO JAIL! (explanation follows) To: figmo%mica.Berkeley.EDU@VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU,

su-etc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> In her original posting on SU-MARKET, Lynn Gold asserted that Mark Crispen could not legally sell the things that he was offering, saying: > . . . As far as I know, his selling and your > purchasing of these items could cause you AND him to be arrested for > violating a restraining order. She now quotes a restraining order: > It says that "VIOLATION OF THIS ORDER IS A MISDEMEANOR PUNISHABLE BY A > FINE OR JAIL, OR BOTH. THIS ORDER SHALL BE ENFORCED BY ALL LAW > ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA." > > If it were just a personal thing, I wouldn't bother with your BBoard. Though I am not a lawyer, I believe that the restraining order applies only to Mark and Lynn and that the potential for going to jail applies only to them. Therefore, it was improper to threaten others. Since this seems to be a private matter, it has no place in this forum. Even if it were a public matter, it should appear on only one SU-bboard, not two. I confess that this spat seems ironically appropriate in a way, given that Mark and Lynn first met on a bboard. Nevertheless, I would just as soon be spared the details. Les Earnest

PDheader:1988-04-15 16:20:00-07:00 8cac0dfa7a18d169651c0b414db54233 ∂15-Apr-88 1620 CRISPIN@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU re: BUY FROM CRISPIN, GO TO JAIL! (explanation follows) Received: from SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 15 Apr 88 16:20:09 PDT Date: Fri, 15 Apr 88 16:10:21 PDT From: Mark Crispin <Crispin@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU> Subject: re: BUY FROM CRISPIN, GO TO JAIL! (explanation follows) To: LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU In-Reply-To: Message from "Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>" of Fri, 15 Apr 88 13:59:00 PDT Postal-Address: 1802 Hackett Ave.; Mountain View, CA 94043-4431 Phone: +1 (415) 968-1052 Message-ID: <12390751411.59.CRISPIN@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU>

Les - I've made no public comment on BBoard intentionally. Last January, the judge explicitly told me (in court, with Lynn present) that I should sell certain expensive items he considered frivolous. He explicitly mentioned my BMW (ignoring, I guess, that Lynn took the BMW that was paid for). Afterwards, I told my lawyer "That's ridiculous! The amount due on the loan is about the same as what it's worth. I'd probably lose money selling it. What's more, there's this restraining order." The answer I got was that the order did not prevent me from selling property in the "course of normal day-to-day business." That is, it's OK to convert excess property to a liquid form to help pay expenses. I'd just have to report what the stuff sold for. So, I'm having problems paying the mortgage this month, and I am borrowed up to the hilt on credit cards. I see I have 5 TV's in the house and I only use one. I have two old VCR's and I only use 1. I have an old video camera which is large and bulky and which I don't use any more (I'll buy a camcorder someday instead). I have a shitload of science fiction artwork which is virtually worthless since that sort of thing is out of fashion. I don't *need* any of this stuff, but I do need to pay the mortgage. Imagine what would have happened if I tried to do as the judge said and sell the BMW! -- Mark -- -------

PDheader:1988-04-15 16:49:00-07:00 1449dcb236461be06a66708eaeea4c30 ∂15-Apr-88 1649 LES re: BUY FROM CRISPIN, GO TO JAIL! (explanation follows) To: Crispin@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU [In reply to message sent Fri, 15 Apr 88 16:10:21 PDT.]

Mark, I was wondering why you were so quiet. Hope your sale proceeds successfully, despite the static. Les

PDheader:1988-04-15 17:25:00-07:00 3caac95adc70628cf4d9b855396a8fd6 ∂15-Apr-88 1725 @SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU:Crispin@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU re: BUY FROM CRISPIN, GO TO JAIL! (explanation follows) Received: from SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 15 Apr 88 17:24:59 PDT Received: from KSL-1186-4.STANFORD.EDU by SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU with TCP; Fri, 15 Apr 88 17:24:47 PDT Date: Fri, 15 Apr 88 17:19:03 PDT From: Mark Crispin <Crispin@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU> Subject: re: BUY FROM CRISPIN, GO TO JAIL! (explanation follows) To: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: <607122295.A0392.KSL-1186-4.Crispin@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU> In-Reply-To: Message from Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> of 15 Apr 88 1649 PDT

The sale hasn't done anything since Lynn posted that message. I sold one TV for $30. That's it. I am declaring the science fiction artwork worthless and am dumping it back at her. I refuse to keep it at any non-zero valuation. Of course, if she takes it she's stuck with the valuation she put on it. I have already told my lawyer this and asked him to make the arrangements. -- Mark --

PDheader:1988-04-18 17:26:00-07:00 a5d2cb1d68cd1995c84536dc6b46af77 ∂18-Apr-88 1726 Mailer Re: BUY FROM CRISPIN, GO TO JAIL! (explanation follows) Received: from violet.berkeley.edu by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 18 Apr 88 17:26:35 PDT Received: from eris.berkeley.edu

by violet.berkeley.edu (5.54 (CFC 4.22.3)/1.16.17l) id AA21606; Mon, 18 Apr 88 17:26:23 PDT Received: by eris.berkeley.edu (3.2/SMI-3.0DEV3.7MXv) id AA25549; Mon, 18 Apr 88 17:25:41 PDT From: figmo%mica.Berkeley.EDU@violet.berkeley.edu Message-Id: <8804190025.AA25549@eris.berkeley.edu> To: Les Earnest <LES@sail.stanford.edu> Cc: su-etc@sail.stanford.edu Subject: Re: BUY FROM CRISPIN, GO TO JAIL! (explanation follows) In-Reply-To: Your message of 15 Apr 88 13:59:00 PDT. <8804152059.AA22418@violet.berkeley.edu> Date: Mon, 18 Apr 88 16:25:37 PST Les -- It would be a private matter if there weren't a restraining order involved. Because there is, and because he used Stanford's electronic bulletin boards in his attempt to violate said order, my only recourse was to rush off a message to the same audience. I stand corrected re: those who buy from Mr. Crispin. Mark, on the other hand, can be arrested at any time. --Lynn

PDheader:1988-04-20 03:27:00-07:00 f00e964a874fa25b295d7ec3008b86e4 ∂20-Apr-88 0327 Mailer Ground Zero Task Force To: su-etc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>

English continues to evolve apace. Each year some new terms crop up and some old ones migrated from one field to another. For example, consider what happened to respectible engineering and scientific terms like "radar," "laser," and "quasar" when advertisers got their hands on them. Other buzz words migrate from one field of human activity to another for unknown reasons and, along the way, often change their meanings in odd ways. The term "ground zero" was introduced to the public at the end of World War 2 to describe the point on the surface of the earth that is directly below an exploding bomb, usually an atomic bomb. In recent years, the phrase "starting from ground zero" has somehow come to mean the same thing as "starting with nothing" or "starting from scratch." The connection is not obvious, though a plausible explanation is that after a nuclear airburst, there would not be much left at ground zero. Earlier, "starting from scratch" migrated into general use from the world of sports, where the "scratch" was the starting line. "Backpedalling" was exclusively a cycling term until it took on a broader meaning. Now that bikes without freewheels are rare (they are used only in track racing) the original meaning of "backpedalling" is almost lost. The popularity of the phrase "starting from ground zero" is perhaps attributable to the fact that it sounds more precise than "starting with nothing." This also appears to be the reason why the phrase "from point A to point B" has moved from the field of analytic geometry into popular use in recent years, though it means nothing more than "from one place to another." Now the term "task force" is often used to describe a thing that we used to call an "ad hoc committee." The new term is apparently becoming stylish because it sounds so -- well, FORCEFUL! Thus, another well-worn bit of Latin starts slipping toward oblivion. Of course, "task force" was originally a naval term used to describe a collection of ships that work together to carry out a specific mission, such as to search for enemies and destroy them. Sounds like an apt characterization of the new "task forces" when you think about it. :-) Les Earnest

PDheader:1988-04-20 10:26:00-07:00 bcfa06afaf8abc4822fae1f9dea73c52 ∂20-Apr-88 1026 holstege@polya.stanford.edu Starting from ground zero Received: from polya.stanford.edu by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 20 Apr 88 10:26:42 PDT Received: by polya.stanford.edu (5.54/inc-1.2) id AA04749; Wed, 20 Apr 88 10:26:35 PDT Date: Wed, 20 Apr 88 10:26:35 PDT From: holstege@polya.stanford.edu (Mary Holstege) Message-Id: <8804201726.AA04749@polya.stanford.edu> To: les@sail.stanford.edu Subject: Starting from ground zero

I believe this is the result of the conflation of two expression: `starting from nothing' (i.e. zero) and `going back to square one' >> `starting from square one'. The rhythm of the phrases `starting from square one' and `starting from ground zero' are very similar, and I guess people felt that starting from `zero' was more impressive than starting from `one'. I have also heard the expression `going back to ground zero' in some very infelicitous contexts. I never quite sure whether to be more amused or annoyed. //mh

PDheader:1988-04-22 00:45:00-07:00 c091517a1e27c03f13e80a55119d5a28 ∂22-Apr-88 0045 Mailer re: Junk phone calls...

PDheader:1988-05-03 14:36:00-07:00 c9a1ab0d69469201ae2e06df4e78e52f ∂03-May-88 1436 yeager@ardvax.stanford.edu Re: Civil Liberties 22: Representative Governance -- Rise and Fall of 6-day Racers Received: from ardvax.stanford.edu by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 3 May 88 14:36:21 PDT Received: from KSL-1186-5.Stanford.EDU by ardvax.stanford.edu with TCP; Tue, 3 May 88 14:34:45 PDT Date: Tue, 3 May 88 14:30:40 PDT From: Bill Yeager <yeager@ardvax.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: Civil Liberties 22: Representative Governance -- Rise and Fall of 6-day Racers To: Les Earnest <LES@sail.stanford.edu> Message-Id: <608667392.A0737.KSL-1186-5.yeager@ARDVAX.STANFORD.EDU> In-Reply-To: Message from Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> of 02 May 88 1246 PDT

Les, I hope you are writing some kind of book as you submit this to su-etc. IT is really very interesting and there is a much larger audience "out there" for such a thoughtful chronicle. Bill

PDheader:1988-05-03 16:33:00-07:00 63ccf8ffe98eeff79f0d8dae2ea7bd86 ∂03-May-88 1633 LES re: Civil Liberties 22: Representative Governance -- Rise and Fall of 6-day Racers To: yeager@ARDVAX.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Tue, 3 May 88 14:30:40 PDT.]

Bill, Glad you like it. Of course, this all started with a one-page posting. Before sending it off, I decided that there was a bit too much to say in one page so I split it in two; then I split the second page five ways; then I shortly realized that I had sucked my self in! I am beginning to believe that you are right about there being a book in this. Trouble is, what I have to say is a bit too bikish to qualify as a proper civil liberties treatise, so if I go that way I may have to focus on bikedom, which may limit the market. Les

PDheader:1988-05-03 16:42:00-07:00 f52ae2bbbce0599a9be62ac0222f176b ∂03-May-88 1642 yeager@ardvax.stanford.edu re: Civil Liberties 22: Representative Governance -- Rise and Fall of 6-day Racers Received: from ardvax.stanford.edu by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 3 May 88 16:42:14 PDT Received: from KSL-1186-5.Stanford.EDU by ardvax.stanford.edu with TCP; Tue, 3 May 88 16:40:32 PDT Date: Tue, 3 May 88 16:36:22 PDT From: Bill Yeager <yeager@ardvax.stanford.edu> Subject: re: Civil Liberties 22: Representative Governance -- Rise and Fall of 6-day Racers To: Les Earnest <LES@sail.stanford.edu> Message-Id: <608674934.A0843.KSL-1186-5.yeager@ARDVAX.STANFORD.EDU> In-Reply-To: Message from Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> of 03 May 88 1633 PDT

My feeling is that "bikedom" is very large. I'm on the fringe and really enjoy the daily articles... Bill cliff@CSA5.LBL.GOV Re: Is the Press impressing or depressing? [Cliff, Here, for your information, is the full text of my original message to Peter Neumann, which he didn't accept on the grounds that I was indulging in character assassination. I acknowledged to Peter that that was exactly what I was aiming to do and asserted that it should be done, but I accepted his bland view nonetheless. -Les] In RISKS DIGEST 6.71, Cliff Stoll reviews his experiences in running down a cracker and in dealing with the press. Cliff speaks favorably of his encounters with the press in general and with John Markoff in particular. Having fiddled with those folks on and off for 30 years, it appears to me that he was lucky and should not assume that his next encounter will be as positive. I have some specific things to say about Markoff. One of Cliff's remarks that caught my eye was the following: > Instead of closing our doors to this bastard, we monitored and traced him > for about a year. I am curious about _why_ this was done. I agree that it is necessary to spend some time watching crackers to be sure that you understand their principal tricks, but once you have that information, I see no point in prolonging the game -- why not start slamming doors and harassing them off your system? You may not catch them, but you are likely to get rid of the problem and the drain on your time a lot quicker that way. On Aug. 2, John McCarthy said: .Ancient civilizations built on their trash until .they lived on mounds hundreds of feet high. My opinion is that trash .disposal is another easy problem made hard by the environmentalists. In my experiences with the press, something on the order of one-third of the articles for which I have provided information have turned out to be substantially distored. I think that my batting average has improved a bit over time because I am getting better at spotting reporters with axes to grind, but I still get fooled. It appears to me that current problems in waste disposal have almost nothing to do with environmentalists, but are the result of a lack of imagination. I believe that the ancient practice of growing ever-taller towns atop their rising middens was not so much a planned approach as a natural result of the simple waste disposal systems then in use. Nevertheless, I believe that their practice of using trash structurally is a sensible one that we should exploit. Based on specific experience, I would say that John Markoff is a very intelligent and knowledgeable person and a very persistent investigator, but he also routinely distorts stories to make them more "interesting" and consistently paints images of crackers as folk heros rather than as the antisocial adolescents that most of them are. The most common approach to waste disposal today is to use it to fill low-lying areas or valleys. Suppose instead that we use it to build upward. For example, we could borrow an idea from the ancient Egyptians and honor our political leaders by building pyramids that would dwarf those constructed in earlier times. Pink Floyd Better still, we could build hills and mountains in those areas that don't have them. People in the Midwest currently have to travel great distances in order to go skiing in the Winter or mountain climbing in the Summer. If Chicago started piling its refuse just outside town, it could have an excellent ski resort there in a generation or two. In the Bay Area, we could have local skiing even sooner by piling our trash atop Mt. Diablo instead of the Mountain View marshlands. To cite a specific example of Markoff's reporting, I note that Cliff said: > . . . reporter John Markoff mentioned LBL in an article on computer > breakins. The article talked about someone with the pseudonym "Pink > Floyd". To facilitate mountain building, it would likely be desirable to build extensible entry tunnels and elevators at the dump site so that waste material could be easily brought in by truck or railroad and hoisted to the summit. Of course, doing something like this would require some long term planning, which seems to be beyond the capability of most municipal governments, but maybe the Feds could handle it. In fact, that article by Markoff about some incidents at Stanford was in large measure a fabrication. For one thing, there never was a "Pink Floyd." That persona was invented by Markoff. In order to neutralize the Sierra Club, they should be offered the responsibility of designing the mountains. Like most universities, Stanford is a rather open place. The front doors are unlocked during the day and a lot of stange people walk in. Computer security is fairly lax and many people come and go on these systems. This makes it a natural hunting ground for crackers. The only thing unusual about the so-called "Pink Floyd" incidents was that it involved a conspiracy of three or more crackers, who were working over some of the Stanford Unix systems. Most crackers are loners. On one of their bogus accounts that the consortium set up, the password "pfloyd" was used. Was that a reference to Pink Floyd, Paul Floyd, Patrick Floyd, or one of dozens of other possibilitie? Just one of the plausible interpretations that I can think of would make a good headline. In any case, it was _not_ the name of an account or the chosen name of a cracker. In his usual adoring style, Markoff described the mythical "Pink Floyd" as a "brilliant hacker." Markoff knows that stuff like that sells. If this troublesome fellow was a "brillient hacker," he also had a split personality, because he often sent messages to other instances of himself. Soviet Spies Invade ARPAnet Going back further, the first time I remember meeting Mr. Markoff was in 1980, shortly after returning from Europe, where I gave a paper at a conference held at IIASA, the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis. IIASA is housed in an interesting old Hapsburg castle near Vienna and includes participants from a number of countries, including both the U.S. and U.S.S.R. When I visited their computer facility I was interested to learn that they had digital links both to the Soviet Union and to the U.S. -- the latter went to MIT as I recall. I mentioned this amusing fact to Markoff during an interview. I didn't ever see the article that he wrote, but I heard a lot of thunder from various secondary sources that mentioned things like a direct link between Soviet spy networks and ARPAnet. As I recall, that led to a congressional investigation. Not having seen the original article, I hesitate to point my finger, but it is clear that _somebody_ grossly distorted the true situation. Rebel with a Modem Just about a month ago, a colleague at Stanford recently gave me a copy of an article by John Markoff that appeared in Image magazine (a Sunday supplement to the San Francisco Chroncle) on 3/27/88. The article was titled "Rebel with a Modem" and gave a glowing description of a bunch of teenage crackers. It quoted me more-or-less accurately. I had been fairly careful about what I said to Markoff, based on past experience. The article referred darkly to investigations by the Secret Service. This seemed quite unlikely to me; such investigations are normally conducted by the F.B.I. My guess was that Markoff liked the sound of "Secret Service." A few days later, Markoff sent me a message mentioning that he has moved to New York and is now writing computer stories for the New York Times. He knows that I am into bicycles and remarked that "Bicycling in Central Park is just not the same as riding down Tunitas Creek." For people who haven't been there, Tunitas is a beautiful little valley with a small rough road that takes you from the mountains to the sea, winding through thick redwood forests along the way. Markoff also asked what I thought of his article. Here is the full text of my response. I have received no reply and don't really expect one. -------------------------------------- Date: 05-Apr-88 0209 To: John Markoff From: Les Earnest Subject: Rebel with a Modem and related fables [In reply to message sent Sat Apr 2 16:15:37 1988.] As you may discover, there is more than just a difference in scenery between Tunitas Creek and Central Park. I recall a report of a bike race there a few years ago where the race leader's breakaway was brought to an abrupt end by a knife-wielding hijacker who took his bike. I don't normally read the Chron anymore, but one of the comp. center people passed along a copy of your article. Since you ask, I will tell you what I think of it: it is another admiring account of adolescent techno-wizard Robin Hoods. In other words, it is a puff piece for juvenile delinquency. I doubt that you think well of people who use knives and the threat of physical violence as a way to steal or vandalize things. Why then do you write admiringly of those who do the same thing using modems and cleverness? I don't get very upset about people who filch modest amounts of computer services that would otherwise go unused. Neither do I try to engage crackers in endless cat-and-mouse games, as some of our reformed crackers do. However, when they indulge in disruptive behaviour, such as destroying files, contacting other users, or trying to engage staff members in cute games of "catch-me-if-you-can," I regard it as anti-social behaviour and I aim to geld them. I know something of juvenile delinquency from both sides. I had an F.B.I. record by the time I was 12 years old, though that was a bum rap. Some of my boyhood friends ended up in the slammer. Incidentally, my impression is that the investigations and arrests of interstate crackers are carried out by the F.B.I., not the Secret Service as your article reports. Did you have a reason for saying that? Many adolescents and some young adults have not yet developed a code of ethical conduct. They pick one up over time by listening to contemporaries, watching (not listening to) their parents, and to some extent from things they read. I believe that articles such as "Rebel with a Modem," which overstate the cleverness of the crackers with the apparent aim of turning them into folk heros, are likely to lead more kids astray. Given that the general public and most editors doesn't understand the technical issues of computer use and consequently have only a faint understanding of the ethical issues involved in their abuse, it will continue to be possible for you to write and sell articles such as this for the forseeable future. I would prefer to see you apply your talents to educating the public rather than telling them how cute those vandals are. Cheers, Les Earnest

PDheader:1988-05-08 19:31:00-07:00 5cd267d2d2b2358279b91574fb3e28ff ∂08-May-88 1931 J.JBRENNER@MACBETH.STANFORD.EDU bikes Received: from MACBETH.STANFORD.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 8 May 88 19:31:17 PDT Date: Sun 8 May 88 19:27:10-PDT From: Joe Brenner <J.JBRENNER@MACBETH.STANFORD.EDU> Subject: bikes To: les@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <12396816550.208.J.JBRENNER@MACBETH.STANFORD.EDU>

I don't follow the bboards real closely these days, so I may have missed the point of what you're doing, but isn't the title "Civil Liberties" a bit innacurate at this point? (Maybe "Cycle Liberties" would be better?) Is this a book you're writing? By the way, now that you're sort of on the subject of bicycle technology, do you know anything about the Transbar bikes (the ones with the non-rotary power trains: you push the peddles up and down, levers pull on cables attached to freewheels on both sides of the freewheel). I saw an article about them once that said they're having trouble catching on commercially, but I don't see why. From a mechanical engineering point of view (i.e. without having ridden one) they look great: countinuously variable gear ratios, smoother power stroke, shorter dead time between power strokes. They look to me like they'd make good mountain bikes. -- Joe B. -------

PDheader:1988-05-08 20:24:00-07:00 6e953a2f244c9ca87dbcf27c4d07ad13 ∂08-May-88 2024 LES re: bikes To: J.JBRENNER@MACBETH.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Sun 8 May 88 19:27:10-PDT.]

> I don't follow the bboards real closely these days, so I may have > missed the point of what you're doing, but isn't the title > "Civil Liberties" a bit innacurate at this point? (Maybe > "Cycle Liberties" would be better?) Is this a book you're writing? See Civil Liberties 30 on Tuesday for an answer. > By the way, now that you're sort of on the subject of bicycle technology, > do you know anything about the Transbar bikes Sorry, haven't tried it. I _have_ tried a number of other interesting transmission systems that didn't work well, though. The proof is in the ride. See if you can borrow one. Don't buy it to try it. Les

PDheader:1988-05-16 16:00:00-07:00 3ddc3689717277c2ca0d7eede4f687fc ∂16-May-88 1600 @Score.Stanford.EDU:GA.JRG@forsythe.stanford.edu Received: from Score.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 16 May 88 16:00:16 PDT Received: from lindy.stanford.edu by SCORE.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; Mon 16 May 88 16:00:07-PDT Received: by lindy.stanford.edu; Mon, 16 May 88 16:01:24 PDT Date: Mon, 16 May 88 15:58:22 PDT From: June Genis <GA.JRG@forsythe.stanford.edu>

PDheader:1988-05-16 16:31:00-07:00 1a8d59d8e321bd39e3733d3c25ab857c ∂16-May-88 1631 LES The bboard conspiracy To: GA.JRG@FORSYTHE.STANFORD.EDU CC: su-bb@Score.Stanford.EDU [In reply to message sent Mon, 16 May 88 15:58:22 PDT.]

Of course, thinking of politics strictly in terms of right-left positions makes about as much sense as thinking that IQ tests measure intelligence -- both are delusions of one-dimensional minds. The problems you cite are a subset of the general lack of standards in electronic mail and bboards. There is currently no way to have a given bboard be given the same name in all systems because of incompatible naming schemes in the various operating systems and applications software. Therefore, the responsibility for informing users on how to find the various information resources that are available on a given system rests with the administrators and systems programmers for that system. A later posting by Mr. Flaherty suggests that he recognizes at least one additional dimension, when he says: .In the ideal, libertarianism is objective with respect to "rightness" or ."leftness". The ACLU has drifted pretty far from that ideal, largely .because of its own "thought policing" of its membership. In addition to the problems you cite, there is a strong need for shared databases, but they are currently not practical because of the lack of standards. For example, both SU-EVENTS and SU-MARKET should be databases rather than bboards, so that data elements such as dates and times of events or types of product could be recognized and manipulated by software. These advances will not happen until someone invests a lot of energy in development and selling, especially the latter. Curiously, Mr. Flaherty offers no qualification or justification for his assertion about "thought policing." I hereby label that remark as unqualified bullshit and invite him to defend it. Les Earnest Here is the revised monthly su-bboards posting that Joe and I have been working on. Major changes are: - new name for the bboards (Stanford Newsgroups) - new emphasis on USENET newsgroups rather than bboards - mention of su.admin and su.news groups

PDheader:1988-05-16 16:46:00-07:00 f776910ac54a61458da97d8afa2f3f06 ∂16-May-88 1646 GA.JRG@forsythe.stanford.edu The bboard conspiracy Received: from lindy.stanford.edu by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 16 May 88 16:45:59 PDT Received: by lindy.stanford.edu; Mon, 16 May 88 16:47:25 PDT Date: Mon, 16 May 88 16:44:13 PDT From: June Genis <GA.JRG@forsythe.stanford.edu> To: les@sail.stanford.edu Subject: The bboard conspiracy

REPLY TO 05/16/88 16:30 FROM LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU "Les Earnest": The bboard conspiracy Les, Thanks for the info. I certainly agree about the need for data bases. I've fished things over a year old out of LISTSERV archives on BITNET. Should someone be crazy enough to get involved in the issue of standards, at least campus-wide standards, where would you see as the appropriate focal point? I have to confess that I rather like the BITNET LISTSERV approach and I remain very sceptical about the whole idea of bboards. I realize though that its rather impractical to have multiple copies of things sent to the same node so there needs to be some mechanism for sub-distribution from that point on. I just intend to make sure that getting things shipped to your own mailbox remain an option on forsythe :-) /June To: LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU

PDheader:1988-05-16 17:17:00-07:00 3bdfabf52291c7bb206018e69f2311d0 ∂16-May-88 1717 LES re: The bboard conspiracy To: GA.JRG@FORSYTHE.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Mon, 16 May 88 16:44:13 PDT.]

In fact, nobody seems to be responsible for campus communications standards. Theoretically, this problem lies somewhere in Bob Street's domain, but the people there are doing their best to duck it. I have been trying to bludgeon Bill Yundt and John Sack into accepting responsiblity for some even more fundamental standardization needs, so far with only limited success. Unfortunately, I don't actually work for Stanford any more, so I have limited leverage. I am not familiar with LISTSERV. Is that a scheme for doing subdistribution of mass mailings? If so, then it would be an example of another missing standard: a way of specifying mailing lists that is universally recognized. Right now, each kind of operating system has its own conventions for specifying mailing lists and they are all incompatible. If we had a standard, then all that would be needed to share and exchange lists would be simple translators for each kind of operating system to go both ways between their internal representation and the exchange standard. Mabbe someday.

PDheader:1988-05-20 12:02:00-07:00 b5237187d1f9ef741ca93642536790bf ∂20-May-88 1202 D3.M48@forsythe.stanford.edu Received: from lindy.stanford.edu by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 20 May 88 12:02:32 PDT Received: by lindy.stanford.edu; Fri, 20 May 88 12:04:15 PDT Date: Fri, 20 May 88 12:00:56 PDT From: <D3.M48@forsythe.stanford.edu> To: les@sail.stanford.edu

to Les Earnest would you kindly distribute this? - thanks, S.Doniach PARALLEL PROCESSING CO0LLOQUIUM

PDheader:1988-05-20 12:06:00-07:00 cbb977be05d205c49e55a69cbae8c334 ∂20-May-88 1206 Mailer PARALLEL PROCESSING CO0LLOQUIUM To: su-events@SAIL.Stanford.EDU

PDheader:1988-05-20 12:12:00-07:00 083589fbb3a6438dce8098cc69caba10 ∂20-May-88 1212 LES PARALLEL PROCESSING COLLOQUIUM To: D3.M48@FORSYTHE.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Fri, 20 May 88 12:00:56 PDT.]

Done. If you wish to post such things yourself and Forsythe doesn't provide the necessary facility, just send to SU-bboard@machine, where "bboard" is one of the SU- topic areas and "machine" is any of the machines that handle SU postings, such as Score, Sail, or Polya. Les

PDheader:1988-06-22 10:50:00-07:00 77d69d8b5c44cbb1ea44e3995c31c002 ∂22-Jun-88 1050 @Score.Stanford.EDU:reuling@jr.stanford.edu SU Bboards monthly posting Received: from Score.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 22 Jun 88 10:50:53 PDT Received: from jr.stanford.edu by SCORE.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; Wed 22 Jun 88 10:41:30-PDT Received: from LOCALHOST by jr.stanford.edu (4.0/4.7); Wed, 22 Jun 88 08:31:31 PDT To: su-bb@score Subject: SU Bboards monthly posting Date: Wed, 22 Jun 88 08:31:21 PDT Message-Id: <13824.582996681@jr.stanford.edu> From: John Reuling <reuling@jr.stanford.edu>

-John I'd like to change the SU Bboards monthly posting to reflect the increasing USENET readership. Below is my proposed revision, which refers to the bboards by the USENET names rather than their original names. Do you think this is a good idea? ===== -John Stanford Newsgroups (formerly SU BBoards) is an electronic bulletin board system that interconnects dozens of computers and thousands of users at Stanford and beyond. It is divided into topical newsgroups, as listed just below. A given message should go to JUST ONE of these newsgroups. In ambiguous cases, choose the closest fit and post a pointer message on your second choice, e.g "See my message about <subject> on su.<newsgroup>." SU BBoards is an electronic bulletin board system that interconnects dozens of computers and hundreds of users at Stanford. It is divided into topical bboards, as listed just below. A given message should go to JUST ONE of these bboards. In ambiguous cases, choose the closest fit and post a pointer message on your second choice, e.g "See my message about <subject> on su.<bboard>." su.market - things for sale, "Where do I buy X?", comments on products, merchants and service providers, e.g. "Who is a good dentist?"; su.jobs - jobs wanted or offered; su.events - announcements of seminars, concerts and other events inside and outside Stanford; ticket offers and requests go to su.market; su.computers - comments on computer services, "How do you do X on system Y?"; discussion of SU BBoards policies; no ads for computer products -- they go to su.market; system Y?"; discussion of Stanford newsgroups policies; no ads for computer products -- they go to su.market; su.macintosh - discussion of the Macintosh computer, its software, and its use at Stanford; su.admin - news and info for Stanford administrative personnel; su.news - discussion about the Stanford Newsgroups; su.etc - everything else. Some systems use different names for these bboards; e.g. names of the form SU-XXXX are used on most non-Unix systems. Check local documentation or your system manager for reading and posting information. If your computer does not accept direct postings to these bboards, you can post via other computers such as Score or SAIL using electronic mail (e.g. send to SU-XXXX are used on most TOPS-20 systems. Check local documentation or your system manager for reading and posting information. If your computer does not accept direct postings to these bboards, you can post via other computers such as Score or SAIL using electronic mail (e.g. send to su-market@Score.Stanford.EDU). SU-BBOARDS@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU remains a valid address. Such messages will be manually screened and forwarded to the appropriate list. This service is provided for posters from outside Stanford and others who might be unsure about which bboard is most appropriate for their message. If there are local bboards that reach your intended audience, please use them instead of posting to the SU BBoards. Here are some important ones: CSD@Score - Computer Science Department GSB@How - Graduate School of Business BBOARD@Lear - LOTS. Such postings are automatically forwarded to bboards of the same name on certain other machines within the same organization. On many systems the Stanford Newsgroups are distributed as USENET newsgroups. These systems may provide additional newsgroups with the "su." prefix, as well as other national, regional, and local newsgroups. Posters from outside Stanford who may be unsure which newsgroup is most appropriate for their message may mail it to SU-BBOARDS@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU. Such messages will be manually screened and forwarded to the appropriate newsgroup. If there are local bboards or mailing lists that reach your intended audience, please use them instead of posting to the Stanford newsgroups. Here are some important ones: CSD@Score (csd.bboard) - Computer Science Department GSB@GSB-How - Graduate School of Business BBOARD@Macbeth - LOTS Protocols In posting a message to one of these bboards, remember that it will be In posting a message to one of these newsgroups, remember that it will be seen by a large number of people. In order to avoid wasting their time, please use the following guidelines. BE CONCISE. State your point, support it as needed, and stop. INCLUDE A "SUBJECT:" LINE if your mail program supports this. INCLUDE A "SUBJECT:" LINE. FORMAT your message with no more then 79 characters on a line -- otherwise it will disappear off the edge of the screen on some systems. BE ACCURATE. Check your message for accuracy and spelling before releasing it and be sure you send it to the right bboard. it, and be sure you send it to the right newsgroup. NO CORRECTIONS. Do not send corrections to postings unless there is likelihood of serious misunderstanding. Do not correct spelling errors but do feel embarrassed about them. If you posted to the wrong bboard, but do feel embarrassed about them. If you posted to the wrong newsgroup, resend it to the correct one and be prepared to receive private complaints about the double posting. Accept them gracefully. NO APOLOGIES. If you make an error, do not post an apology. Deal with any resulting problems privately. NO "TEST" MESSAGES. If you're not sure whether your messages are being posted correctly, please contact SU-BB@Score. Do not post test messages. being posted correctly, please contact SU-BB@Score. If you MUST post a test message, post it to the "su.test" newsgroup. In responding to postings by others, please do the following. USE PERSONAL MESSAGES unless you are reasonably sure that what you have to say will be of general interest to the bboard readers. to say will be of general interest to the newsgroup readers. BE POLITE even if the person you are responding to was not. If you feel upset, wait until the feeling passes. Reread the offending message to be sure that you are not misinterpreting it. If you feel that you must use strong language, do so only in personal mail, not on the bboard. use strong language, do so only in personal mail, not on the newsgroup. OVERLOOK MINOR ERRORS. Remember that not everyone posting on the bboards is proficient in English and many can't spell well. If you see a OVERLOOK MINOR ERRORS. Remember that not everyone posting to the news- groups is proficient in English and many can't spell well. If you see a consistent misspelling and wish to help avoid future embarrassment, send a private message. If you: (a) receive a mailer error back from a message sent to one of the SU Bboards, (b) wish to call attention to an operating problem in these bboards, Stanford Newsgroups, (b) wish to call attention to an operating problem in these newsgroups, (c) would like to add an additional computer to the recipients list for one or more of these bboards, or for one or more of these newsgroups, or (d) have comments on these guidelines, please send a message to SU-BB@Score.Stanford.EDU. please mail a message to SU-BB@Score.Stanford.EDU. These people currently assist in maintaining the Stanford Newsgroups: Les Earnest <Les@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> John Reuling <Reuling@Med-ISG.Stanford.EDU> Carl Schaefer <Schaefer@SUMEX-AIM.Stanford.EDU> Joe Weening <JSW@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> A copy of these guidelines will be posted every 30 days to su.computers and should be retained on each participating system in a "help" file. This message is available on Score.Stanford.EDU as HLP:SU-BBOARDS.HLP.

PDheader:1988-06-22 11:14:00-07:00 a166fd3c209eb9e2be3fe6d2a61f81eb ∂22-Jun-88 1114 LES re: SU Bboards monthly posting To: su-bb@Score.Stanford.EDU CC: ME@SAIL.Stanford.EDU [In reply to message sent Wed, 22 Jun 88 08:31:21 PDT.]

In reponse to John Reuling's suggestion that documentation describing "SU-bboards" be changed to "su.bboards," I do not agree that the documentation should reflect Unix conventions only. A plausible alternative would be to change the names of these bboards on all systems to su.xxxx provided that they all can handle names of that form. If some can't, then the documentation should show both forms of the names. Les

PDheader:1988-06-24 01:02:00-07:00 f1e9cf3242d1f2af9a7ccccb2ae53709 ∂24-Jun-88 0102 P.PR@othello.stanford.edu The importance of being Les Earnest -> ? Received: from labrea.stanford.edu by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 24 Jun 88 01:02:51 PDT Received: from Othello.Stanford.EDU by labrea.stanford.edu with TCP; Fri, 24 Jun 88 01:02:10 PDT Date: Fri 24 Jun 88 01:00:02-PDT From: Pratheep Balasingam <P.PR@othello.stanford.edu> Subject: The importance of being Les Earnest -> ? To: su-etc@othello.stanford.edu Message-Id: <12408935772.239.P.PR@OTHELLO.STANFORD.EDU>

You seem to be holding down the kind of job I want when I grow up! Is there room for one more up there? Pratheep -> suddenly on the lookout for phantasmic occupations <- -------

PDheader:1988-06-24 13:09:00-07:00 e1dec938a9628c0bfd1b414f2358499b ∂24-Jun-88 1309 LES re: The importance of being Les Earnest -> ? To: P.PR@OTHELLO.Stanford.EDU Pratheep Balasingam says:

.You seem to be holding down the kind of job I want when I grow up! .Is there room for one more up there? In article <1Ovsoa@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> you write: >Many people long for immortality. As discussed earlier, immortality is >incompatible with sexual reproduction, but it will probably be possible to >extend human life considerably. We apparently all carry "death genes" >that eventually get rid of us even if other natural processes do not. >Eventually, it should be possible to modify these genes or to neutralize >them so as to permit lifetimes of, say, a few centuries, though this would >cause other physical problems to show up. For example, our knees, elbows, I am curious. Perhaps I'm ignorant, but I have never heard of these "Death Genes" or ones that would function as such in my studies as a biologist. Also, I don't see why sexual reproduction is incompatible with the biological potential for immortality. I can imagine some clever biologist MDPhD figuring out how to extend his lifespan greatly and without affecting his fertility. Or do you mean that immortality would not come about in the natural course of evolution, that it would not be selected for? I can see how it might be an evolutionary cul-de-sac, but it would still not be incompatible with repro- ductive fertility. In fact, I think that an extended lifespan would actually be selected for since a longer reproductive phase of life would give more time to progagate one's genes. Consider that the higher primate life spans are much longer than that of other animals such as rodents and dogs. Six generations of hamsters will die of old age in the same amount of time that it takes a human to reach puberty. Using your argument that longer-lived individuals have a greater productivity/educational-cost ratio, I would tend to think that animals with a great capacity to learn would be subject to the selection pressure for longer life, whereas animals like insects would probably be better off just laying many thousands of eggs. The only possible argument for programmed death genes would be to take old members of a species out of circulation so that the newer ones could have more food and resources. The preying mantis does this effectively by immediately converting the male into food to provide nourishment for the production of eggs. But such consider- ations of resources shouldn't be much of constraint for a tool-using species. Most primates are tool-users and are limited largely by predation, I think. In any case, I have never heard of death genes until now, and do not see much evolutionary logic behind the existence of such death genes. -Avery Wang

PDheader:1988-07-11 23:56:00-07:00 9c06faf4992c8975a4e06236ec9fc34c ∂11-Jul-88 2356 awang@isl.Stanford.EDU Re: Civil Liberties 82: Bio-engineering Received: from isl.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 11 Jul 88 23:56:04 PDT Received: by isl.Stanford.EDU (3.2/4.7); Mon, 11 Jul 88 23:55:48 PDT Date: Mon, 11 Jul 88 23:55:48 PDT From: awang@isl.Stanford.EDU (avery wang) To: LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU Subject: Re: Civil Liberties 82: Bio-engineering Newsgroups: su.etc In-Reply-To: <1Ovsoa@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> Organization: Stanford University Cc:

PDheader:1988-07-17 01:37:00-07:00 6a0448b093e4abb865a4245d32f0b0fd ∂17-Jul-88 0137 LES re: Civil Liberties 82: Bio-engineering To: awang@ISL.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Mon, 11 Jul 88 23:55:48 PDT.]

Sorry for the slow response -- I have just returned from a week at the Stanford Sierra Camp, hence my mind has been reset. Not being a biologist, I can't readily back up my assertions, but I recall reading a number of years ago about intrinsic limitations on the number of times that cells of higher life forms can reproduce, which in turn implies a limited life span for the body as a whole. It is possible that the article I read was speculative, but as I recall it was in a semi-reliable periodical such as Science or Scientific American. First, it is clear that neither all police nor all self-described "conservatives" agree on this issue. Furthermore, the issue is not "protection of criminals" but "protection of defendant's rights." Of course, in the views of some people, apparently including Ed Meese, there is no distinction between defendants and criminals, but our legal system still recognizes that distinction as an important one. Yes, I believe that immortality would be quite disadvantageous for species that reproduce sexually. In order for evolution to work, it is essential that earlier generations die off. Therefore, it should be advantageous for the overall success for there to be limits on individual survivability. On this basis, the allegation that there are genetic limits on survivability seems plausible to me. John suggests that "sanctions against improper collection of evidence be imposed separately" but makes no concrete proposals in this area. I invite him to do so. For example, how should police be dissuaded from indulging in illegal search and seizure? If you believe that my rather vague recollections on this topic are wrong, please feel free to state your views on the bboard. I would not want to mislead anyone and would certainly not take offense at the expression of a conflicting view, especially a more informed one. With respect to the Miranda ruling, I observe that it is the object of more misinformation than any other legal principle introduced in the last 50 years, most of it derived from televised cop stories. For example, people often call the local ACLU hotline to complain that they were "illegally arrested," giving as proof that the policeman failed to read them their rights. In response, I explain to them that the police have no legal obligation to "Mirandize" them -- that failing to do it simply means that it may be difficult (not necessarily impossible) for the prosecutor to use in court any statements they make to the police. In other words, the purpose of Mirandizing is to protect _police_ rights. Police are not required to do it and they often don't. The entries for su.computers and su.news overlap: There is plenty of room -- I am unemployed. -Les Les Earnest su.computers - comments on computer services, "How do you do X on system Y?"; discussion of Stanford newsgroups policies; no ads for computer products -- they go to su.market; su.news - discussion about the Stanford Newsgroups; Seems to me that "discussion of Stanford newsgroup policies" should be deleted from su.computers. Let me reiterate that I think the departmental bboard names should be changed to a more consistent scheme, such as su.cs for what is currently called csd, su.cs.nnn for CSD course nnn, su.bus in place of the GSB bboard, etc. If you prefer to defer this issue, it can be argued out in su.news.

PDheader:1988-08-07 16:59:00-07:00 a3f4051b3ce09c67f1ef9c87973e6e5b ∂07-Aug-88 1659 Mailer Trash To: su-etc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>

Like Alex, I have gotten a lot of junk phone calls, inluding random stock brokers and boilerroom opperations calling me at Stanford every two or three weeks. I am consistently short and impolite with them. My guess is that some of these sleeze bags are working the Stanford telephone directories. I talked to the legal department awhile back about a possible way to reduce the flow, namely to print on the Stanford directories in a prominent location such as the cover that they are not to be used for solicitation. In order to trap those who do it any way, there would have to be a few mythical names in each directory with real telephone numbers. Anyone who solicited these mythical people would then be giving themselves away. Unfortunately, I found no enthusiasm for this scheme in the legal office. I think that they have enough litigation on their platter and don't wish to stir up any more. Les Earnest

PDheader:1988-08-07 16:59:01-07:00 a5c49b144bbc22e1f4fd0a9bb69cadc3 ∂07-Aug-88 1659 Mailer Trash To: su-etc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>

PDheader:1988-08-07 16:59:02-07:00 e399749716653c906a55edc58cd9701f ∂07-Aug-88 1659 Mailer Trash To: su-etc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>

John McCarthy says: > By his murders and now incitement of murder, the Ayatollah > has made me regard him as an enemy. Therefore, if there is > any advantage to the U.S. or to civilization in killing him, > I'm all for it. Being opposed to the death penalty, I don't support killing the Ayatollah, but given his leadership position and his offer of something over $2 million for someone to kill Rushdie (whose name is ironically well suited to the situation), it seems to me that a reciprocal offer is in order. It is probably impractical to bring about the Ayatollah's incarceration, but with sutable incentives, someone might be able to slightly dismember him. I think that a public subscription should be undertaken with the goal of matching or exceeding the Ayatollah's Rushdie offer with the stipulation that the money will go to whoever succeeds in separating two or more limbs or destroying both eyes of the Ayatollah. This might eventually enable the Ayatollah to "see" the error of his ways. If whoever tries this screws up and kills the Ayatollah, then he should get only expense money, say $10,000, with the balance going to a suitable charity. Given that Ollie North is now a civilian, he should be asked to divert some of the funds in the Swiss bank accounts to this project. It would be suitably ironic to use some of the Iranian arms money get the Ayatollah Khomeini. On Aug. 2, John McCarthy said: .Ancient civilizations built on their trash until .they lived on mounds hundreds of feet high. My opinion is that trash .disposal is another easy problem made hard by the environmentalists. Les Earnest It appears to me that current problems in waste disposal have almost nothing to do with environmentalists, but are the result of a lack of imagination. I believe that the ancient practice of growing ever-taller towns atop their rising middens was not so much a planned approach as a natural result of the simple waste disposal systems then in use. Nevertheless, I believe that their practice of using trash structurally is a sensible one that we should exploit.

PDheader:1988-08-22 15:08:00-07:00 f7945270af5db34f6adc62a1b8149f07 ∂22-Aug-88 1508 Mailer Re: Those Republicans To: su-etc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> Subject: revised monthly posting Date: Mon, 30 Jan 89 11:32:08 PST Message-Id: <6637.602191928@jr.stanford.edu> From: John Reuling <reuling@jr.stanford.edu>

I've been gathering comparative information on various bboard systems including those available at Stanford. All of the ones I've tried so far seem to be particularly bad at providing any information about what is out there. For example, although "SU bboard guidelines" mentions market, jobs, events, computers, macintosh, and etc, an accidental use of "-n all" added nethax, news, phones, planning, vaxhax and vnews to my .newsrc file under su. Also, "macintosh" had become just "mac". We get our feed from LaBrea as I understand it and take everything they have to offer. How could I have found out what the complete universe of available files, including local regional ones, is without resorting to "all"? Sorry to come in late on the ACLU discussion -- I was sweating out last week in Houston. I should point out that I really don't speak UNIX and have been testing most of this on pass thru from FORYSTHE to LINDY or directly on LINDY using few other commands besides those within the news reading programs. BTW, the ones I've found so far are VNEWS, READNEWS, and RN. Do you know if there are others floating around Stanford. Our VNEWS copy was severely out of date (1985). Is there an ostensible method for keeping these programs up to date? In a posting on 18 Aug, Paul Flaherty said: .The ACLU is a partisan organization, and as such, opens itself as a target .to such attacks. It tends to defend the rights of those causes on the .left, and ignore pleas for help on the right. You lie down with dogs... Thanks for the help, /June Given that ACLU often defends the rights of Nazis and Ku Klux Klaners, Mr. Flaherty seems to have either a selective memory or a bizarre view of the political spectrum. If he thinks of those folks as leftists, I wonder who he thinks is further to the right?

PDheader:1988-08-22 16:00:00-07:00 d5bf947be50ad59140aa8c6c5e59eb17 ∂22-Aug-88 1600 Mailer Rights of defendants To: su-etc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>

Please let me know what you think. Also, do you think we should discuss this on su.news? In a posting on Aug 19, John McCarthy's says that he is opposed to the "protection of criminals" and makes the following remarks. .The police and conservatives say that the technicalities concerning what .constitutes "improperly" mean that many murderers are released and commit .more murders. It is proposed that sanctions against improper collection .of evidence be imposed separately and that the evidence not be suppressed. .The Miranda issue is one of many. Date: TUESDAY MAY 24 AT 4 PM Dr Robert Benner of Sandia Nat'l labs will speak on "1000 fold speed up of scientific computation on a 1024 processor hypercube". place: PHYSICS TANK, room 101.

PDheader:1989-01-18 11:57:00-08:00 2c8573ca8cc809a8294531f890d34d5a ∂18-Jan-89 1157 LES re: Proposal for new SU bboard To: weening@GANG-OF-FOUR.STANFORD.EDU CC: su-bb@SCORE.Stanford.EDU [In reply to message sent Tue, 17 Jan 89 14:58:27 PST.]

Looks reasonable to me to add a bboard for bureaucrats. Given the trend toward using systems whose software helps users avoid seeing cross-postings, it would also be reasonable to consider a relaxation of the SU-bboard policy against cross-posting. One other change that might be considered is to replace su.market and su.jobs with two new bboards called su.ads and su.review. Su.ads would includes ads of all kinds, including jobs, while su.review would be a forum for review of products and services, possibly including SU-bboard services. Su.review would be expected to draw some of the material that now appears in su.etc. I suggest this change because quite a few people seem to have trouble understanding the scope of su.market as currently formulated. Perhaps some of this should be discussed in a wider forum before being implemented. Longer term, I wish that there was a way to share and maintain databases and hypertext among systems. If there were, the environment could be enriched and a great deal of time could be saved by classifying ads, allowing access to the Events file with date or location constraints, allowing access to archived consumer reviews in a structured way, allowing subtopics on bboards to semi-automatically split off, merge, die, or whatnot. This would be a nontrivial undertaking, of course. Les

PDheader:1989-01-30 11:39:00-08:00 78226acb212c6a947c3338f58a1bb718 ∂30-Jan-89 1139 @Score.Stanford.EDU:reuling@jr.stanford.edu revised monthly posting Received: from Score.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 30 Jan 89 11:39:36 PST Received: from jr.stanford.edu by SCORE.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; Mon 30 Jan 89 11:31:13-PST Received: from LOCALHOST by jr.stanford.edu (4.0/inc-1.0) id AA06638; Mon, 30 Jan 89 11:32:12 PST To: su-bb@score.stanford.edu

PDheader:1989-01-30 15:38:00-08:00 0155b2a55d55b41bfd58577b4b79614f ∂30-Jan-89 1538 @Score.Stanford.EDU:LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU su.bboard inconsistency Received: from Score.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 30 Jan 89 15:38:30 PST Received: from SAIL.Stanford.EDU by SCORE.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; Mon 30 Jan 89 15:36:39-PST Message-ID: <4hy#T@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> Date: 30 Jan 89 1538 PST From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> Subject: su.bboard inconsistency To: su-bb@SCORE.Stanford.EDU

These people are currently maintaining the SU Bboards distribution lists: Les Earnest <Les@sail> John Reuling <Reuling@med-isg> Carl Schaefer <Schaefer@sumex-aim> Joe Weening <Weening@labrea> James Wilson <JWilson@polya> A copy of these guidelines will be reposted every 30 days on su.computers and should be retained on each participating system in a "help" file. This message is available on Score.Stanford.Edu as HLP:SU-BBOARDS.HLP.

PDheader:1989-01-30 15:52:00-08:00 c0987d46d62d08c233901108641917e8 ∂30-Jan-89 1552 reuling@med-isg.stanford.edu Re: su.bboard inconsistency Received: from med-isg.stanford.edu by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 30 Jan 89 15:52:33 PST Received: from LOCALHOST by med-isg.stanford.edu (4.0/inc-1.0) id AA20813; Mon, 30 Jan 89 15:51:46 PST To: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> Cc: su-bb@SCORE.Stanford.EDU Subject: Re: su.bboard inconsistency In-Reply-To: Your message of 30 Jan 89 15:38:00 PST.

<4hy#T@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 89 15:51:44 PST Message-Id: <20811.602207504@med-isg.stanford.edu> From: John Reuling <reuling@med-isg.stanford.edu> Oops! I fixed the HLP:SU-BBOARDS.HLP file on Score to reflect those changes re su.computers and su.news. I also agree that the current naming scheme for local bboards/newsgroups is inconsistent, but I'm don't know how much of it we can change. The GSB bboard is maintained by GSB on their own machines. As far as I know, there is no USENET copy of it. The CSD bboard is part of the csd distribution and as such is not copied to the same machines as the su newsgroups. I think that departments should be allowed to set up their own groups, with their own distributions, and (probably) with whatever names they choose. If they want to have groups with the "su" newsgroup distribution, I think we should be more concerned about the naming scheme they choose. At any rate, I think this would be a good topic for su.news. I'm sure there would be quite a few people interested in this. -John

PDheader:1989-01-30 16:15:00-08:00 5208f47b4f0cf6acb492470d20269257 ∂30-Jan-89 1615 @Score.Stanford.EDU:weening@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU Re: su.bboard inconsistency Received: from Score.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 30 Jan 89 16:15:19 PST Received: from Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU by SCORE.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; Mon 30 Jan 89 16:07:33-PST Received: from LOCALHOST by Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (5.59/25-eef) id AA05770; Mon, 30 Jan 89 16:11:13 PST Message-Id: <8901310011.AA05770@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU> To: su-bb@score Subject: Re: su.bboard inconsistency In-Reply-To: Your message of 30 Jan 89 15:38:00 -0800.

<4hy#T@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 89 16:11:10 PST From: Joe Weening <weening@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU> The problem with moving discussions about the bboard system to su.news is that this cuts out the non-USENET people. (I suppose we could create SU-NEWS bboard corresponding to su.news, but this name is guaranteed to be confusing -- it's unfortunate that USENET people like to use the term "news" to refer to USENET.) With regard to the naming scheme, there is more to consider than just consistency. Namely, the first component of the name is the primary means of deciding which systems get the newsgroup, so su.cs groups would go farther than csd groups currently do. (This brings up the whole other topic of the propagation of the su groups both within and outside Stanford, which I'll leave for a separate discussion.) As things were set up by Brian Reid several years ago, however, all of the Stanford hosts fed by Labrea get the groups in su,csd,cis,csl,icl. (No one seems to use cis.bboard, the only cis groups that I have seen in existence; and as far as I know, there are no csl or icl groups.) But I'll bet you didn't know that there are at least two distributions at Stanford more restrictive than su -- sdc and csli. sdc exists on Lindy and Forsythe (and perhaps other SDC machines), and csli exists on csli only. Each of these contains several groups of interest to those communities. As long as the set of machines receiving a given set of groups is different from those machines receiving another set of groups, those groups deserve to be in different top-level namespaces. It is possible to put them in the same namespace and propagate the subsidiary namespaces selectively, but this is more work for the USENET administrators.

PDheader:1989-02-08 17:23:00-08:00 c33ad9eed68ef1751f52f1a35620d022 ∂08-Feb-89 1723 Mailer Re: Greenhouse effect wrong thinking To: JMC@SAIL.Stanford.EDU, su-etc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>

John McCarthy says: > What I said was that if the upper atmosphere is > really affected by small amounts of certain gases, we might be > able to discover some substances whose injection would produce effects > that we might like. I remarked that this is not an idea that people > who regard Americans mainly as polluters are likely to think of or > even take seriously. Of course, in order to figure out just how to control global warming, it will be necessary to undertake a few experiments. If one of these tests doesn't work out well, to which planet does John suggest that we then emigrate? Les Earnest

PDheader:1989-02-09 00:49:00-08:00 11d13d78a5b85f769202f74955edb626 ∂09-Feb-89 0049 Mailer re: Greenhouse effect wrong thinking To: RWF@SAIL.Stanford.EDU, JMC@SAIL.Stanford.EDU,

su-etc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> Bob Floyd says: > We are already performing experiments on the earth's > atmosphere, and have been for thousands of years. > The novelty is to propose doing so consciously. Heavy burning of fossil fuels began less than two centuries ago. Were it not for the absorbtion of CO2 by the oceans we would all have died as a result of this experiment. The frightening thing is that the scientists of that period did not realize either the extent to which the atmosphere was being polluted or the extent to which the ocean would act as a buffer. In other words, we survived by dumb luck. That precedent is not a sound foundation on which to build. John McCarthy says: .I agree that theory and laboratory experiments might have to be supplemented .by experiments in the atmosphere. Proposed experiments with the atmosphere .will have to be evaluated for safety. However, before experiments can be .proposed, someone has to think seriously about what chemicals not presently .in the atmosphere might have useful effects. Les, do you agree that the .chance of finding something useful is good enough to justify doing the .research? I certainly would not argue against laboratory research, but experiments in the atmosphere are rather frightening. As I mentioned in an earlier posting, you don't get many tries to get it right. I am reminded of the plans and experiments in the '50s to use cloud seeding and other weather modification techniques to benefit mankind. Trouble is, one person's benefit is often another's disaster. That whole scheme consequently went away when faced with litigation, both real and threatened. Doing weather modification on a global basis would have the same problem greatly amplified, even if we were quite sure it would work. Undertaking it would involve a colossal political problem. Les Earnest

PDheader:1989-02-15 18:07:00-08:00 ccc71e46d2e7ec4819b51bdbb3a7678a ∂15-Feb-89 1807 LES re: Countries don't think? To: su-etc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU Hans Moravec says:

.Les says countries don't think ( and by implication companies and .groups don't think), only people think. I disagree. Any large .organization with a formal decision making process does interpret .information and plan actions just as an individual human does .when it thinks. What organizations (including countries) do is form a consensus on certain issues. Such conclusions are sometimes codified as laws. Consensus- formation is controlled mainly by political processes, which I do not regard as "thinking." If Hans wishes to regard politics as "thinking," then I will simply say "not in my dictionary." In any case, the posting that I was responding to was a sweeping generalization about what certain countries such as Libya and Iran "think" of the U.S. The writer had no direct information about the degree to which the opinions that he was ascribing to these countries are actually held by a substantial number of the residents there. In other words, it was just another blast of hot air of the kind that often appears in this forum. Let me put this a different way: there is clearly some thought behind many of the postings in su.etc, but I do not regard this exchange process as "thinking" even when a consensus is reached, such as opposition to censorship. Les Earnest

PDheader:1989-02-20 16:04:00-08:00 98b6f0ddb6f5c0d93293e796095830c2 ∂20-Feb-89 1604 Mailer Satanic tit for tat

PDheader:1989-02-28 11:28:00-08:00 fda4cfb60088e824ab27e0a531b4b8d9 ∂28-Feb-89 1128 @cunyvm.cuny.edu:UNCJSR@UNC.BITNET rec.humor.funny Received: from RELAY.CS.NET by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 28 Feb 89 11:28:16 PST Received: from cunyvm.cuny.edu by RELAY.CS.NET id aa24173; 28 Feb 89 9:56 EST Received: from UNC.BITNET by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP R1.1) with BSMTP id 9802; Tue, 28 Feb 89 09:53:31 EST Date: Tue, 28 Feb 89 09:52 EST From: "J. S. Reed" <UNCJSR%UNC.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu> To: les%sail.stanford.edu@RELAY.CS.NET Subject: rec.humor.funny

Enjoyed your comment in RISKS-DIGEST. Any way an outsider (on BITNET) can subscribe to rec.humor.funny? --John Reed, U. of N.C.

PDheader:1989-02-28 16:08:00-08:00 1c2b7bfc42f09a4afcf29719f759815c ∂28-Feb-89 1608 weening@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU Re: Newsfeeds Received: from Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 28 Feb 89 16:08:29 PST Received: from LOCALHOST by Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (5.59/25-eef) id AA08859; Tue, 28 Feb 89 16:09:10 PST Message-Id: <8903010009.AA08859@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU> To: joe@hanauma Cc: les@sail Subject: Re: Newsfeeds In-Reply-To: Your message of 28 Feb 89 14:25:00 -0800.

<1s7rwc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 89 16:09:08 PST From: Joe Weening <weening@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU> The most common approach to waste disposal today is to use it to fill low-lying areas or valleys. Suppose instead that we use it to build upward. For example, we could borrow an idea from the ancient Egyptians and honor our political leaders by building pyramids that would dwarf those constructed in earlier times. Helens is still running news, so I'm not sure what you mean when you say "their server died". (Perhaps they disabled their NNTP server?) You might want to try Lindy in the Stanford Data Center (though they are also not getting rec.humor.funny). The list of sites that get news that I know about is: cascade, csli, glacier, helens, lindy, polya, portia, wombat. Labrea will soon be replaced by Shelby, a machine at AIR, as the main news host on campus. I could suggest that Shelby enable NNTP access to anyone. They might not keep more than a week or so of news online, though.

PDheader:1989-03-01 00:39:00-08:00 a4f48a215135647b5db8bea5e69da562 ∂01-Mar-89 0039 LES re: rec.humor.funny To: UNCJSR%UNC.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU [In reply to message sent Tue, 28 Feb 89 09:52 EST.]

Glad you liked the posting. With respect to your question, I'm afraid that rec.humor.funny is strictly a Usenet (i.e. Unix network) beast. It is not even available on non-Unix systems at Stanford.

PDheader:1989-03-10 18:48:00-08:00 875c7651750efd45fc8e1b9474ff8115 ∂10-Mar-89 1848 weening@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU service newsgroups Received: from Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 10 Mar 89 18:48:17 PST Received: by Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (5.59/25-eef) id AA07727; Fri, 10 Mar 89 18:48:35 PST Date: Fri, 10 Mar 89 18:48:35 PST From: Joe Weening <weening@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU> Message-Id: <8903110248.AA07727@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU> To: les@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU Subject: service newsgroups

Better still, we could build hills and mountains in those areas that don't have them. People in the Midwest currently have to travel great distances in order to go skiing in the Winter or mountain climbing in the Summer. If Chicago started piling its refuse just outside town, it could have an excellent ski resort there in a generation or two. In the Bay Area, we could have local skiing even sooner by piling our trash atop Mt. Diablo instead of the Mountain View marshlands. I'd like to post a message to su.news summarizing what we discussed today. How does the following look? ------------------------------------------------------------ For a number of years, SAIL has had a file (called SERVIC[P,DOC]) that contains recommendations for various providers of services in the Stanford area, such as auto repair, doctors and dentists, [list several more categories]. Because most people these days use systems other than SAIL, it makes sense to move this information to another medium, such as USENET. There are two main differences between this kind of information and the usual content of USENET messages: 1. The information has permanent value, and should not expire quickly as ordinary messages do. 2. Messages should be limited to those that state the good or bad points of a service provider; discussions are not appropriate. Our proposal is to set up a hierarchy of newsgroups under the heading su.service. For each category there will be a separate group, i.e., su.service.auto-repair, su.service.dentists, etc. There should be some explanatory messages about the su.service groups; these could be posted in the group su.service itself. The message expiration problem is not too hard to deal with. Hosts that keep USENET articles online would set the default expiration date for these groups to something much longer than normal, say 1 or 2 years. We could use "Expires:" header lines, but that would be an extra burden on people posting to the newsgroups, unless postings are filtered in some way (see below). If a message needs to be removed for some reason (such as a company going out of business), it can still be canceled in the normal way by the person who posted it, or by any USENET system administrator. A "Supersedes:" header line can also be used to post a new version of a message and cancel the old one, as is done in the group news.announce.newusers. The problem of inappropriate postings is not as easy to solve. It may not really be a problem, since in general we expect people will be pretty reasonable about what they post. One possible solution, if it turns out to be necessary, is to make the su.service groups moderated. Then we would need some volunteers to screen the postings and manage the newsgroups. To facilitate mountain building, it would likely be desirable to build extensible entry tunnels and elevators at the dump site so that waste material could be easily brought in by truck or railroad and hoisted to the summit. Of course, doing something like this would require some long term planning, which seems to be beyond the capability of most municipal governments, but maybe the Feds could handle it. Does anyone have comments on this proposal, or further suggestions? In order to neutralize the Sierra Club, they should be offered the responsibility of designing the mountains. Les Earnest & Joe Weening Les Earnest

PDheader:1989-03-14 12:56:00-08:00 164a9a7196db91c0be59363250eea8bc ∂14-Mar-89 1256 LES Bboard chronolgy To: RPG

I would like to reconstruct the chronology of bboard development at Stanford. I recall that you were one of the more consistent flamers at an earlier time, so you might remember. There was a "notices" feature included in SAIL from its beginning (June 1966). Shortly after disk files were added (1968), a wizards' bboard appeared that described and discussed recent or planned system changes Various distribution lists were used for discussing specialized topics and at some point the bboard for general discussion came into being -- I don't remember exactly when, but I think that it was in the mid- to late-'70s. The SAIL bboard was later distributed to other machines. I think that happened sometime after I wandered off in late '80. A little later (I suspect around mid-'84) it was renamed SU-BBOARD and distributed more widely. As I recall, Brian Reid put in the Usenet cross-link for su.bboard around the same time. In mid-'86 we split SU-BBOARD into 5 pieces and more SU-bboards have been added over time. Now, can you pin down any of my squishy dates more accurately or do you have any conflicting recollections?

PDheader:1989-03-15 08:56:00-08:00 3ea509e4cb7c8b96a46d4662b9911b07 ∂15-Mar-89 0856 RPG BBoard

I'm not sure to what degree I'm being honored by being recalled as a consistent flamer. I arrived at SAIL in 1975, so I cannot go back any further than that. There were, I think, two files that contained ``information'' or ``discussion'' material. One was called NOTICE or NOTE, which is where things like changes to the system were described by Rubin or Ralph. The other was the precursor to the BBoard as we know it, and I think at that time it was called bboard with a filehack \bb. I'm pretty certain there was such a bboard file in 1976, because that's when I started the ``Loser of the Month'' award, which I posted on bboard. The bboard file was divided into pages that corresponded to topics. Mostly it was used as a means of advertising things and announcing events, but occasionally someone would post a note that caused debate. The style was to append your comments at the end of the page with your ppn at the left followed by a hyphen: rpg - Like this. Sometimes you would mail his comment to the main person, but usually you would look to see if things changed on the pages one cared about. The first real flamefest started when someone started talking about how it was irrelevant to go into space, and that there was nothing worth doing or seeing there. The guy's name was Neil something (maybe Rowe?), and he had some big problem with both his ankles so he walked with two crutches all the time. This was the first time a topic spilled onto multiple pages. This guy also once argued that the slower the computer the better, because if you had a slow computer, you had to think hard about how and what to program whereas a fast computer made things too easy. This was the first flamefest in which direct baiting of an individual was used as a technique. I'm proud (?) to say I was one of the originators of this technique. Crispin was also a constant target of barbs during that era. This was in 1977, I think. Shortly after this or maybe about the same time, debate over the new building started up. Since we moved down there in 1979, and since the debate was about a year earlier, I'd say this started in 1978. The folks at Polya joined in the debate, which was about space allocation, what the offices would be like, why the musicians were being booted, why we had to move in the first place. I remember that Betty Scott joined in on this debate. The topic was so hot, that a second bboard was created called BUREAU. I think BUREAU was distributed to other machines (like SUMEX?), which introduced the now popular mail style of bboard, since they used TENEX or TOPS-20. Don Woods developed the checksum program about the time that BUREAU started, to help people find new material. Before that, you had to remember page numbers. The space debate was on page 36, I think, since I can still remember looking at that page every half hour for nearly 6 months. Soon after SCORE arrived, which was at Jacks?, the bboard was cloned on SCORE, and SCORE used a mail style while SAIL used the file style. There was a debate about which style was better. Some liked being able to press 'n to skip a message, while others liked using checksum. To get stuff from SAIL to score, you had to remember to mail it there, while SCORE automatically forwarded stuff to SAIL. About once a day, someone at SAIL coalesced messages into the one-topic-one-page style we liked. I recall that the SCORE folks didn't like the SAIL commentators because the SAIL guys didn't recap or introduce the topic in each message, since we had the entire page in front of us. I think the next big step was when you set up some rules about how to use bboard and partitioned it off into different parts, like su-market. I hope this helps. If I remember any more I'll send it along. -rpg-

PDheader:1989-03-15 18:29:00-08:00 a5a35336674faf66175b287db5e6e473 ∂15-Mar-89 1829 weening@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU Received: from Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 15 Mar 89 18:29:43 PST Received: by Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (5.59/25-eef) id AA06266; Wed, 15 Mar 89 18:29:50 PST Date: Wed, 15 Mar 89 18:29:50 PST From: Joe Weening <weening@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU> Message-Id: <8903160229.AA06266@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU> To: les@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU

RPG says: The first real flamefest started when someone started talking about how it was irrelevant to go into space, and that there was nothing worth doing or seeing there. The guy's name was Neil something (maybe Rowe?), and he had some big problem with both his ankles so he walked with two crutches all the time. ... This was in 1977, I think. I remember this incident quite well, so unless it happened more than once it has to be placed in 1980 or later. If you are collecting classic messages, some others to get, which were before my time, are the "rent-a-cat" series and something RPG contributed about iguanas. Don Woods probably has these filed away. Another person who would be worth contacting, if he still remembers, is Richard Treitel.

PDheader:1989-03-15 19:37:00-08:00 350de099b35688a3c173be6c71a7227f ∂15-Mar-89 1937 RPG Bboard and Rowe

Foo, I thought I clearly remember reading it from my office at the Lab, but I can recall Rowe walking around on his crutches only on campus. Maybe Joe's right. Here is a joke I wrote and posted on bboard in the early 80's: Question: What's the difference between an iguanologist and E? Answer: An iguanologist collects and records files about iguanas burping on flies. E burps files about iguanas on the fly, collecting records.

PDheader:1989-03-26 11:57:00-08:00 70d2eb0e4a029ac1dba0b4afb2be9523 ∂26-Mar-89 1157 cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU Your moderator proposal Received: from csli.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 26 Mar 89 11:57:03 PST Received: by csli.Stanford.EDU (4.0/inc-1.0) id AA18778; Sun, 26 Mar 89 11:56:58 PST Date: Sun, 26 Mar 89 11:56:58 PST From: cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU (Chris Phoenix) Message-Id: <8903261956.AA18778@csli.Stanford.EDU> To: les@sail.stanford.edu Subject: Your moderator proposal

I don't like the idea at all. There's lots of useful stuff on here that to a moderator who doesn't care about the topic would look like a flame. I would not want su-etc moderated--we'd miss too much useful stuff along with the real flames, and not even know we were missing it. I think there is no way any one person could sort out what we want to read from what we don't. Or even any small group of people. Perhaps a better idea would be that when someone makes their first posting, or first posting in a month, we automatically mail them information on how to set up a kill file. We also post it monthly to su.etc. Most people can follow directions well enough to create a kill file with them. Your idea would work fine on most bboards. It's just that su-etc'ers are so prone to flaming, if we tossed out all flames we would toss out the baby too. Chris

PDheader:1989-03-26 14:13:00-08:00 fc5a406d99fa11ced2c63879299fe9be ∂26-Mar-89 1413 LES re: Your moderator proposal To: cphoenix@CSLI.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Sun, 26 Mar 89 11:56:58 PST.]

I am not proposing that su-etc be moderated but that new newgroups be added and that some of them might be moderated. My guess is that a moderated, Stanford-based, general discussion newsgroup would be substantially more popular than su-etc, whose readership has been declining recently. My guess is that if we set one up, that su-etc will become even more LOTS-like and will end up as the de facto su-flame. If that happens, so be it. Les

PDheader:1989-03-27 18:17:00-08:00 f25160977f3789eb8da3f285704c57ca ∂27-Mar-89 1817 cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU Your latest proposal on moderating su-etc Received: from csli.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 27 Mar 89 18:17:31 PST Received: by csli.Stanford.EDU (4.0/inc-1.0) id AA23126; Mon, 27 Mar 89 18:17:25 PST Date: Mon, 27 Mar 89 18:17:25 PST From: cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU (Chris Phoenix) Message-Id: <8903280217.AA23126@csli.Stanford.EDU> To: les@sail.stanford.edu Subject: Your latest proposal on moderating su-etc

(I'm keeping this to e-mail to cut down on net volume--if you want me to post it to the net, that's no problem either.) I like the idea of setting up separate moderated newsgroups. At least, I don't think it will hurt anything, and it might be worth a try. I doubt you'll find anyone with the time or inclination to do the moderating, though. Leave su-etc unmoderated, and I don't think anyone will complain at any suggestion you come up with. Chris

PDheader:1989-03-27 21:19:00-08:00 505738dbd3cdf4c77520cc39d3292c3c ∂27-Mar-89 2119 @Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU:mips!sprint.mips.com!purves@decwrl.dec.com Re: Let the flames begin. Received: from Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 27 Mar 89 21:19:15 PST Received: from decwrl.dec.com by Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (5.59/25-eef) id AA07357; Mon, 27 Mar 89 21:21:12 PST Received: by decwrl.dec.com (5.54.5/4.7.34) id AA14920; Mon, 27 Mar 89 21:19:13 PST Received: by decwrl.dec.com (5.54.5/4.7.34) for les@gang-of-four.stanford.edu; id AA14920; Mon, 27 Mar 89 21:19:13 PST Received: from sprint.mips.com by mips.com id AA17006(1.0); Mon, 27 Mar 89 21:01:36 PST Received: by sprint.mips.com (5.52/4.7) id AA19150; Mon, 27 Mar 89 21:00:41 PST Date: Mon, 27 Mar 89 21:00:41 PST From: mips!mips.com!purves@decwrl.dec.com (David Purves) Message-Id: <8903280500.AA19150@sprint.mips.com> To: mips!Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU!les@decwrl.dec.com Subject: Re: Let the flames begin.

In article <8024@polya.Stanford.EDU> you write: >Don Peacock and others overlook the fundamental question: >what is the motivation of all these weenies who so ardently >defend their "right" to play with guns? It appears that most >are immature males who are uncertain of their masculinity but >find that it helps to have a warm weapon in their hands. > >Les Earnest Phone: 415 723-9729 >Internet: Les@Sail.Stanford.edu USMail: Computer Science Dept. >UUCP: . . . decwrl!Sail.Stanford.edu!Les Stanford, CA 94305 First, I must thank you for your ad hominem attack. Second, I ask you what you believe the motivations of most 16 year old males is for getting their driver's license, or access to the family car. Third, very few gun owners support "play"ing with guns. The NRA certainly advocates training and practice; experience with handling any weapon makes it safer. Finally, I ask you what connection you see between "most people are X" and "do not allow anybody to own Y". --Dave ps, I do not own a gun; I am not a member of the NRA (or any gun-advocating group); I am strongly opposed to bans on *anything* which does not harm others; I believe that possession of any weapon harms noone.

PDheader:1989-03-27 22:41:00-08:00 e417c7510a474cda76850041258c9e63 ∂27-Mar-89 2241 LES re: Let the flames begin. To: mips!mips.com!purves@DECWRL.DEC.COM [In reply to message sent Mon, 27 Mar 89 21:00:41 PST.]

> First, I must thank you for your ad hominem attack. My pleasure -- just living up to the title. > Second, I ask you what you believe the motivations of most 16 year old > males is for getting their driver's license, or access to the family car. To go buy a hand gun? I give up. > Third, very few gun owners support "play"ing with guns. The NRA certainly > advocates training and practice; experience with handling any weapon makes > it safer. Yes, and the NRA also advocates everyone's right to own assault weapons. They would likely support personal ownership of tactical nuclear weapons if they thought that they could get away with it. > Finally, I ask you what connection you see between "most people are X" and > "do not allow anybody to own Y". I made no remarks of that form, so I leave it to your imagination to answer your own question. > I believe that possession of any weapon harms noone. Quite right, but shooting someone with it tends to negatively affect their health. Are you aware that guns in homes are statistically far more likely likely to harm the residents of those homes than any intruder? Les Earnest "When chocolate is outlawed, only outlaws will have chocolate."

PDheader:1989-03-28 11:20:00-08:00 9e774662842d9b747e47e5cd34f048c8 ∂28-Mar-89 1120 mips!sprint.mips.com!purves@decwrl.dec.com re: Let the flames begin. Received: from decwrl.dec.com by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 28 Mar 89 11:20:30 PST Received: by decwrl.dec.com (5.54.5/4.7.34) id AA28799; Tue, 28 Mar 89 11:20:32 PST Received: by decwrl.dec.com (5.54.5/4.7.34) for decwrl!LES@sail.stanford.edu; id AA28799; Tue, 28 Mar 89 11:20:32 PST Received: from sprint.mips.com by mips.com id AA10136(1.0); Tue, 28 Mar 89 11:09:44 PST Received: by sprint.mips.com (5.52/4.7) id AA12973; Tue, 28 Mar 89 11:08:53 PST Date: Tue, 28 Mar 89 11:08:53 PST From: mips!mips.com!purves@decwrl.dec.com (David Purves) Message-Id: <8903281908.AA12973@sprint.mips.com> To: mips!SAIL.Stanford.EDU!decwrl!LES@decwrl.dec.com Subject: re: Let the flames begin.

> ... the NRA also advocates everyone's right to own assault weapons. This is false. The definition of an assault weapon is available on sci.military, and requires fully-automatic operation. The NRA does not support civilian ownership of these weapons, though I do. > They would likely support personal ownership of tactical nuclear weapons if > they thought that they could get away with it. Fine. If you are opposed to personal ownership of tactical nuclear weapons, then I suggest you campaign for a constitutional ammendment repealing or modifying the Second Ammendment. Until then, you must show that tactical nukes (or "assault weapons") are somehow exempt from the Second Ammendment, if you wish to infringe on the right to own them. > > Finally, I ask you what connection you see between "most people are X" and > > "do not allow anybody to own Y". > > I made no remarks of that form, so I leave it to your imagination to answer > your own question. You are correct. You merely implied opposition to ownership of such weapons. I trust, then, that you have other reasons to oppose gun ownership, if you do in fact oppose it. > > I believe that possession of any weapon harms noone. > > Quite right, but shooting someone with it tends to negatively affect their > health. Are you aware that guns in homes are statistically far more > likely likely to harm the residents of those homes than any intruder? I sure am, and that's fine with me. That's one of the reasons that I don't own a gun. But it certainly isn't a reason to prevent others from owning guns. Also, did you know that 3 times as many criminals are shot by civilian gun owners as are wounded by police? > "When chocolate is outlawed, only outlaws will have chocolate." Damn straight. And let's look at the fundamental question: what is the motivation of all these weenies who so ardently defend their "right" to eat chocolate, as though it were somehow guaranteed by the Constitution (like free speech)? It appears that most are immature females who are uncertain of their femininity but find that it helps to have a warm candy in their mouths. Face it, your fundamental question has nothing to do with gun ownership, in addition to being unsupported and (I claim) unprovable. If you were stating your views, I disagree with your views. If you were not, why were there no smiley faces? --Dave

PDheader:1989-03-30 19:29:00-08:00 961772f4e54bbd7a536f2df3a26816ff ∂30-Mar-89 1929 LES re: SAGE, Nike, and Bomarc To: siegman@SIERRA.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Thu, 30 Mar 89 16:02:36 PST.]

Good idea -- I'll do it. However, there are likely to be some followup inquiries and I am leaving for Nepal on Saturday to begin an extended trek in the Himalayas. Given the difficulty of communicating from there, I think I'll post it when I get back in May. -Les

PDheader:1989-03-30 21:59:00-08:00 0eb5094276276eb128925d761653323b ∂30-Mar-89 2159 Mailer Hackers dictionary in Japanese? To: su-etc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>

I received an off-the-wall phone call last night from an editor who is overseeing the translation of the Hackers Dictionary into Japanese. That amusing compilation was put together a decade or so ago by A.I. grad students at Stanford, MIT, and Carnegie-Mellon and recorded the then-current vernacular of their shared cultures. They did it for fun, but it somehow ended up getting published. The Hackers' Dictionary contains more than a few puns, jokes, and other things that are hard to translate such as "moby," as in "moby memory", or "fubar" and its regional variants "foo bar" and "foo baz". While a Japanese version of this dictionary might be of some limited value to a person who comes to the U.S. for an extended visit, there are clearly some risks involved in attempting such a translation. The particular problem that prompted the call was the definition of "logical." Apparently the dictionary gives as an example a statement something like "If Les Earnest left and was replaced by another person, the latter would be known as the logical Les Earnest." This had been written when I was the principal bureaucrat of the Stanford A.I. Lab. and was apparently intended to describe some set of responsibilities that could be transferred from one person to another. The editor reported that the Japanese translator had been hopelessly confused by this example; he found "earnest" in a conventional dictionary but was unable to figure out what a "Les Earnest" was. The editor had tried to explain it to him but was unable to get the idea across. The editor finally called me to find out what my official job title had been, so that he could describe the example in more generic terms. I hope that they manage to work it out, but I am not willing to bet that the Japanese Hackers Dictionary will be fully comprehensible. Les Earnest

PDheader:1989-03-30 23:49:00-08:00 ae078e32eebced82a034d40f4ae0bf4a ∂30-Mar-89 2349 @Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU:S.SALUT@Hamlet.Stanford.EDU Re: SAGE, Nike, and Bomarc Received: from Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 30 Mar 89 23:49:26 PST Received: from Hamlet.Stanford.EDU by Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (5.59/25-eef) id AA07440; Thu, 30 Mar 89 23:51:20 PST Date: Thu 30 Mar 89 23:48:39-PST From: Alex Bronstein <S.SALUT@Hamlet.Stanford.EDU> Subject: Re: SAGE, Nike, and Bomarc To: les@gang-of-four.stanford.edu In-Reply-To: <8090@polya.Stanford.EDU> Message-Id: <12482334019.11.S.SALUT@Hamlet.Stanford.EDU>

Les, Reading your messages over the years on su-etc, I have concluded that you have an incredible number of incredible stories to tell (the "mongrel" one being my favorite). You really MUST write your autobiography one day, or whichever subset of it you'd like to publish, and title it something like: "A Citizen's life" or something better. Really! I'm sure your current job does't let you too many spare cycles, but you should consider it! Alex -------

PDheader:1989-03-31 00:17:00-08:00 f7a81e14acb3e5502f95268c6f34381f ∂31-Mar-89 0017 LES re: SAGE, Nike, and Bomarc To: S.SALUT@HAMLET.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Thu 30 Mar 89 23:48:39-PST.]

Alex, Thanks -- glad you like them. I have thought about writing a larger collection of such stories and have outlined a number of them. There are quite a few having to do with military-industrial nonsense, but there is always the possibility that the military folks might fight back by claiming a breach of national security, even though most of the stories are relatively ancient. Therefore, I have to be a bit careful to not give them too much to work with. -Les

PDheader:1989-04-01 07:09:00-08:00 06cada09f1ee2f47c9ad3de8b55ddd17 ∂01-Apr-89 0709 @Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU:pbzj@vax5.CCS.CORNELL.EDU Re: Let the flames begin. Received: from Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 1 Apr 89 07:09:08 PST Received: from VAX5.CIT.CORNELL.EDU by Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (5.59/25-eef) id AA01456; Sat, 1 Apr 89 07:10:58 PST Date: Sat, 1 Apr 89 10:09:38 EST From: pbzj@VAX5.CIT.CORNELL.EDU Received: by vax5.CCS.CORNELL.EDU (5.51/1.2-Cornell-Computer-Services) id AA04983; Sat, 1 Apr 89 10:09:38 EST Message-Id: <8904011509.AA04983@vax5.CCS.CORNELL.EDU> To: les@gang-of-four.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Let the flames begin. Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns In-Reply-To: <8024@polya.Stanford.EDU> References: <424772a1.1766d@bear.engin.umich.edu> Organization: Cornell Information Technologies, Ithaca NY Cc:

PDheader:1989-04-01 17:00:00-08:00 ad3017f5510c593178d5f1ebec6028da ∂01-Apr-89 1700 Swinehart.pa@Xerox.COM Re: RISKS DIGEST 8.47 (Hacker's dictionary) Received: from Xerox.COM by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 1 Apr 89 17:00:49 PST Received: from Cabernet.ms by ArpaGateway.ms ; 01 APR 89 16:56:54 PST Date: Sat, 01 Apr 89 16:56:45 PST From: Swinehart.pa@Xerox.COM Subject: Re: RISKS DIGEST 8.47 (Hacker's dictionary) In-reply-to: <12482744563.12.NEUMANN@KL.SRI.COM> To: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> Cc: Swinehart.pa@Xerox.COM Reply-to: Swinehart.pa@Xerox.COM Message-ID: <890401-165654-2109@Xerox>

I'd have said "If Les Earnest left and were replaced by another person, the latter would be known as the logical Les Earnest," since the premise is apparently one perennially destined to be counter to fact and thus fully deserving of the subjunctive mode. Otherwise, I can't imagine what was confusing to them. How come you get to tell all the truly hilarious computer stories? best regards, Dan

PDheader:1989-04-01 18:15:00-08:00 8335aa99a1a181a1afd59a48d8cc84ad ∂01-Apr-89 1815 KLOTZ@AI.AI.MIT.EDU Japanese translation of the Hacker's dictionary Received: from AI.AI.MIT.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 1 Apr 89 18:15:24 PST Date: Sat, 1 Apr 89 21:15:51 EST From: "Leigh L. Klotz" <KLOTZ@AI.AI.MIT.EDU> Subject: Japanese translation of the Hacker's dictionary To: les@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <568029.890401.KLOTZ@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>

Could you tell me what publishing company is doing the translation of the hacker's dictionary? I'm interested in hearing about it. (I've worked on proofing Japanese translations of elements of our culture before -- Abelson & Sussman's Scheme book, etc.) Thanks, Leigh.

PDheader:1989-04-01 21:47:00-08:00 261ff8238ae1a8ff6fd5865ef954b019 ∂01-Apr-89 2147 dmr@research.att.com Hacker's Dictionary in Japanese Received: from arpa.att.com (RESEARCH.ATT.COM) by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 1 Apr 89 21:46:57 PST From: dmr@research.att.com Date: Sun, 2 Apr 89 00:13:18 EST Subject: Hacker's Dictionary in Japanese To: les@sail.stanford.edu CC: pgn@kl.sri.com

Some fraction of it has already been done. A friend in Japan sent a copy of `The Shogakukan Dictionary of New English' (second edition) (Shogakukan: Tokyo, 1986). It is by no means limited to computerese, but the H.D. clearly contributed heavily to that section of the lexicon, and is duly credited. It is a remarkable book, abounding with jokes. For example the definition of `yuppie' has a half-page diagram of the male and female types, with arrows pointing out salient features (Zabar's shopping bag containing David's cookies, carrots with tops on). There are entries for Zap Comix, Winn-Dixie stores, session man, slotback, Willie Nelson (4 column inches), Genentech, blowjob. There is a chart of the corporate organization of AT&T and of the D.C. metropolitan police, a map of Greenwich Village, a diagram of the development of pop music. And yes, `logical.' The English examples for the two senses in which the word is discussed are `The computer in our lab is a logical PDP-10,' and `I had a logical hamburger.' Dennis Ritchie

PDheader:1989-04-02 12:33:00-07:00 f87961ed0fc6fe206a382e39c25974c0 ∂02-Apr-89 1233 decwrl!nsc.com!nsc.nsc.com!taux01!amos@labrea.stanford.edu Re: Hackers dictionary in Japanese? Received: from labrea.stanford.edu by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 2 Apr 89 12:33:01 PDT Received: from decwrl.dec.com by labrea.stanford.edu with TCP; Sun, 2 Apr 89 11:32:49 PST Received: by decwrl.dec.com (5.54.5/4.7.34) id AA14038; Sun, 2 Apr 89 12:32:54 PDT Received: by decwrl.dec.com (5.54.5/4.7.34) for labrea!sail.stanford.edu!les; id AA14038; Sun, 2 Apr 89 12:32:54 PDT Received: from taux01 by nsc.NSC.COM (5.61/UUCP-Project/rel-1.0/NSC-1.15/08-15-86) with UUCP id AA21197 for les; Sun, 2 Apr 89 09:06:51 -0700 Date: Sun, 2 Apr 89 09:06:51 -0700 From: <decwrl!nsc.com!taux01!amos@labrea.stanford.edu> Message-Id: <8904021443.AA20700@taux01.UUCP> To: LES@sail.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Hackers dictionary in Japanese? Newsgroups: comp.risks In-Reply-To: <1403@taux01.UUCP> Organization: National Semiconductor (IC) Ltd, Israel Home of the 32532 Hdate: 26 Adar b 5749

This is an interesting case of Life Immitating Art - exactly such an exchange is described in the book "A Small World" (sorry, I don't remember the author's name but it's recommended anyway). -- Amos Shapir amos@nsc.com National Semiconductor (Israel) P.O.B. 3007, Herzlia 46104, Israel Tel. +972 52 522261 TWX: 33691, fax: +972-52-558322 34 48 E / 32 10 N (My other cpu is a NS32532)

PDheader:1989-04-03 07:32:00-07:00 3532539a9e797322a0134532f498dbd2 ∂03-Apr-89 0732 roskos@ida.org Received: from ida.org (CS.IDA.ORG) by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 3 Apr 89 07:32:24 PDT Received: from csed-1 ([197.5.200.1]) by ida.org (4.0/SMI-DDN) id AA16771; Mon, 3 Apr 89 10:31:38 EDT Received: from csed-55 by csed-1 (3.2/SMI-3.2) id AA26014; Mon, 3 Apr 89 10:32:59 EDT Received: from localhost by csed-55 (3.2/SMI-3.2) id AA00378; Mon, 3 Apr 89 10:32:04 EDT Message-Id: <8904031432.AA00378@csed-55> To: LES@sail.stanford.edu Cc: risks-request@kl.sri.com Subject: Date: Mon, 03 Apr 89 10:32:03 E+ From: Eric Roskos <roskos@ida.org>

> I hope that they manage to work it out, but I am not willing to bet that the > Japanese Hackers Dictionary will be fully comprehensible. Having read a number of translations from Japanese and Chinese, I think that the translation must be particularly difficult because of differences in the way ideas are expressed in those languages. Your story reminds me of one of my favorite mis-translations, which appeared in a manual for a Japanese-made dot-matrix line printer (it printed a whole line of dots at once) we bought for the CS department back when I was in graduate school. The introduction had the following very poetic paragraph (as best I can recall it) at the end, which we put up on the wall behind the printer, where it stayed for many years: Advanced technology printing mechanism give 100.000.000 more operating and greater repeatability. The end result is to achieve "super shuttle diplomacy" between cool data, perhaps earned by host computer, and warm heart of human being.

PDheader:1989-04-03 08:31:00-07:00 390f8e04a4c82bdbfe8f0ffefe1d3f33 ∂03-Apr-89 0831 Mandel.Opus@BCO-MULTICS.HBI.HONEYWELL.COM moby? Received: from BCO-MULTICS.HBI.HONEYWELL.COM by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 3 Apr 89 08:31:43 PDT Date: Mon, 3 Apr 89 11:26 EDT From: Mark Mandel <Mandel@BCO-MULTICS.HBI.HONEYWELL.COM> Subject: moby? To: les@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <890403152610.544395@BCO-MULTICS.HBI.HONEYWELL.COM>

Re your RISKS post about translating the hackers' dictionary into Japanese: What DOES "moby" mean anyhow?? I first struck it in "Adventure" (a moby ruby), apart from "Moby-Dick", in which NOBODY seems to know what it means... or else everybody in the book knows and takes it for granted that you do too. I transloaded that story of yours to a local/national BBS of ours, the Cul-de-Sac in Milford, Mass. (TBBS, FidoNet, AlterNet), where a character called "Dr. Whom" runs a language-lovers' sub-board. No reaction yet, but I just posted it today. -- Mark Mandel * My employer is not responsible for anything I say, think, do, or eat. *

PDheader:1989-04-03 14:07:00-07:00 9b79237bf0bd8e6561ddd10d2e6263a3 ∂03-Apr-89 1407 rthomas@tumtum.cs.umd.edu article #5 Received: from mimsy.umd.edu by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 3 Apr 89 14:06:58 PDT Received: from tumtum.cs.umd.edu by mimsy.umd.edu (5.58/4.7) id AA28849; Mon, 3 Apr 89 17:04:59 EDT Received: by tumtum.cs.umd.edu (4.0/3.14) id AA06892; Mon, 3 Apr 89 16:06:02 EST Date: Mon, 3 Apr 89 16:06:02 EST From: rthomas@tumtum.cs.umd.edu (Robert Thomas) Return-Path: <rthomas@tumtum.cs.umd.edu> Message-Id: <8904032106.AA06892@tumtum.cs.umd.edu> To: les@sail.stanford.edu Subject: article #5

Hello, Looking at your article, I am personally highly offended. I have been target shooting for well over 10 years and have aquired the appropriate awards to show for my ability to shoot. I have defended my right as recently as yesterday and find it offensive that people like you who obviously don't know what they are talking about calling other people weenies. A Rifle, Pistol... are NOT weapons. They are firearms, specifically a Rifle, Pistol.... An object is NOT a Weapon until it is used as such. After all, people would call you an ass if you asked for their weapon refering to their pen in their shirt pocket (a ball point pen was used recently in a PG county school to kill another student but putting it through the side of his head). The people I know who are defending their rights are law abiding citizens and are amoung the most mature people I know. It is a sport where you MUST be mature and have a lot of dedication. We are their to shoot and nothing else. Nobody is their with a shirt saying kill a commie for mommy! There has NEVER been an accident on an NRA controlled firing line/range. Outlawing them will only make it worse; don't even try to tell me you can't see that! The law breakers by definition don't abide by the laws so what makes you think you can stop them by passing a law (remember prohibition)? Think a bit more and perhaps we may one day respect you again. Robert

PDheader:1989-04-07 07:45:00-07:00 9d216e7c5cbfd8d9d87fea30b7787857 ∂07-Apr-89 0745 KLOTZ@AI.AI.MIT.EDU Received: from AI.AI.MIT.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 7 Apr 89 07:45:22 PDT Date: Thu, 6 Apr 89 16:46:50 EDT From: "Leigh L. Klotz" <KLOTZ@AI.AI.MIT.EDU> To: les@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU Message-ID: <571304.890406.KLOTZ@AI.AI.MIT.EDU>

Hi. Could you tell me who the publisher/editor were for the Japanese translation of the Hacker's dictionary? I'd be interested in getting in touch with them. Thanks, Leigh.

PDheader:1989-05-04 01:38:00-07:00 8045ced8bbf2fd180b5b970d0d75b37e ∂04-May-89 0138 LES re: Let the flames begin. To: pbzj@VAX5.CIT.CORNELL.EDU [In reply to message sent Sat, 1 Apr 89 10:09:38 EST.]

Sorry for the slow response -- I've been out of the country. You say: . A statistics agreed on by both sides in the controvercy is . that one half of American households own some firearm. . One in four own a handgun. Reconfirming that the U.S. is the most gun-happy country in the world. . 12 million women own handguns, mostly for protection. The reason that they need protection, of course, is that the gun nerds can get all the armament they want, including assault weapons and handguns.

PDheader:1989-05-04 01:46:00-07:00 c9c5f3a9d0cad0e725c7a8469548f8c1 ∂04-May-89 0146 LES re: RISKS DIGEST 8.47 (Hacker's dictionary) To: Swinehart.pa@XEROX.COM [In reply to message sent Sat, 01 Apr 89 16:56:45 PST.]

. . . . since the premise is apparently one . perennially destined to be counter to fact and thus fully deserving of the . subjunctive mode. Picky, picky, picky. Actually, subjunctive is fading fast -- I give it about two more human generations. Sorry for the slow response. Joan and I spent the last month+ trekking in Nepal and nearby places. Those are SERIOUS mountains. Cheers, Les

PDheader:1989-05-04 01:55:00-07:00 fbc333105d64ae1887a4f63c449d02e5 ∂04-May-89 0155 LES re: Japanese translation of the Hacker's dictionary To: KLOTZ@AI.AI.MIT.EDU [In reply to message sent Sat, 1 Apr 89 21:15:51 EST.]

. Could you tell me what publishing company is doing the translation . of the hacker's dictionary? I'm interested in hearing about it. . (I've worked on proofing Japanese translations of elements of our . culture before -- Abelson & Sussman's Scheme book, etc.) Sorry for the slow response -- I've been out of the country. Unfortunately, I discarded the telephone message slip from the editor who called and I don't know the publisher. The original Hacker's Dictionary was published several years ago, so you might be able to identify them with a library search and then find the Japanese publisher through them. Les Earnest

PDheader:1989-05-06 02:01:00-07:00 9b4984a9de6e79f6ffe0ddad70415305 ∂06-May-89 0201 LES re: Hacker's Dictionary in Japanese To: dmr@RESEARCH.ATT.COM [In reply to message sent Sun, 2 Apr 89 00:13:18 EST.]

The Shogakukan Dictionary of New English sounds more interesting than the Hackers' Dictionary. English is quite a challenge for those who grow up with it and is unreasonably peculiar for others. Sorry for this slow response -- I was out of the country for the last month+. I experienced several amusing miscommunications while travelling. For example, when a waiter in Bangkok said that they had grapefruit for breakfast I ordered some, but when it arrived I learned that it was grape fruit. Not even Thompson Seedless, but quite tasty. Les Earnest

PDheader:1989-05-06 02:51:00-07:00 4e9c5213675a678a126ba34d202b2ab0 ∂06-May-89 0251 LES Hackers' Dictionary To: KLOTZ@AI.AI.MIT.EDU [In reply to message sent Thu, 6 Apr 89 16:46:50 EDT.]

. Could you tell me who the publisher/editor were for the . Japanese translation of the Hacker's dictionary? I'd be interested . in getting in touch with them. Sorry for the slow response -- I've been out of the country. Unfortunately, I discarded the telephone message slip from the editor who called and I don't know the publisher. The original Hacker's Dictionary was published several years ago, so you might be able to identify them with a library search and then find the Japanese publisher through them. Les Earnest

PDheader:1989-05-18 11:39:00-07:00 77815221e13aef8474127aedc2873ba6 ∂18-May-89 1139 @Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU:jaw@eos.arc.nasa.gov yak cheese Received: from Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 18 May 89 11:39:32 PDT Received: from eos.arc.nasa.gov by Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (5.59/25-eef) id AA05292; Thu, 18 May 89 11:40:03 PDT Received: Thu, 18 May 89 11:38:53 PDT by eos.arc.nasa.gov (5.59/1.2) Date: Thu, 18 May 89 11:38:53 PDT From: James A. Woods <jaw@eos.arc.nasa.gov> Message-Id: <8905181838.AA04973@eos.arc.nasa.gov> To: les@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU Subject: yak cheese

this is from my wife, who has travelled extensively in nepal... From: kathryn@gene.com (Kathryn Swan Woods) Message-Id: <8905181740.AA20241@genie.gene.com> Subject: Re: yak cheese the female is a nak.....but it is known as yak. In Nepal all cow-like creatures are refered to as Yaks....some real pitiful gernseys even

PDheader:1989-05-23 18:26:00-07:00 13a3fed9c659f58f77306bf5d16d2833 ∂23-May-89 1826 @RELAY.CS.NET:ram@typo.umb.edu company? Received: from RELAY.CS.NET by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 23 May 89 18:26:09 PDT Received: from relay2.cs.net by RELAY.CS.NET id aa19468; 23 May 89 21:26 EDT Received: from umb.edu by RELAY.CS.NET id aa12947; 23 May 89 21:22 EDT Received: by umb.umb.edu (5.51/5.17) id AA08673; Tue, 23 May 89 20:58:02 EDT Received: by typo.umb.edu (3.2/5.17) id AA04840; Tue, 23 May 89 20:57:58 EDT Date: Tue, 23 May 89 20:57:58 EDT From: Robert Morris <ram@typo.umb.edu> Message-Id: <8905240057.AA04840@typo.umb.edu> To: les@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU Subject: company?

Want some company late next week? I'll probably be there approx June 2-6, and Celia may join me on June 3. --Bob

PDheader:1989-05-28 05:42:00-07:00 b4be965fda398507c2ce3059c6a06989 ∂28-May-89 0542 @Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU:cdp!rainbow@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU Re: Guinness to Drop Gluttony Records Received: from Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 28 May 89 05:42:09 PDT Received: from arisia.Xerox.COM by Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (5.59/25-eef) id AA07866; Sun, 28 May 89 05:42:33 PDT From: cdp!rainbow@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU Received: from cdp.UUCP by arisia.Xerox.COM with UUCP (5.61+/IDA-1.2.8/gandalf) id AA09567; Sun, 28 May 89 05:40:19 -0700 Message-Id: <8905281240.AA09567@arisia.Xerox.COM> Reply-To: <cdp!rainbow@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU> Date: Sun, 28 May 89 05:40:19 -0700 To: les@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU Subject: Re: Guinness to Drop Gluttony Records

Kinda sad really, don't you think? My father once told me "Life is a series of relinquishments". Oh well. Hi Les - Rainbow here. I see you are back from your trek - how was it? I am working (since Wednesday) at Sun Microsystems. I like it fine so far - working with some engineers about the SPARC archtecture. Between jobs I managed some time camping out at Pt Reyes (contemplative, solitary, cold foggy mornings - some sadness and loneliness) and then a more social scene at Harbin Hot Springs (near Calistoga) with some wonderful hot springs, cold swimming pool, sunny days, starry nights and a full moon. Did you know that there have been more student sit-ins on college campuses already in 1989 than there had been in 1969? Would like to talk politics with you again sometime. Let me know if you are free to do lunch or something possibly more creative. I have an account on this machine, but can be more easily reached at Sun: rainbow@sun.com or rainbow@eyes.sun.com Happy trails, Rainbow ---

PDheader:1989-05-31 11:56:00-07:00 a363a72c736408059bdb5584918c1194 ∂31-May-89 1156 LES Sit-ins and lunch-outs To: rainbow@EYES.SUN.COM

I was not aware that sit-ins were again becoming so popular. Certainly the Stanford group that took over the President's office did not have their act together -- after doing the civil disobedience thing for no clear reason other than that is it springtime, they now argue that they shouldn't be punished. Sigh. The Chinese situation is exciting and a bit frightening. It looks like things will change soon, but such movements often go in unexpected directions once they get going. We can hope for the best, though. Sure, let's do lunch sometime. I'm pretty flexible on dates. Cheers, Les

PDheader:1989-06-06 07:18:00-07:00 39a886e8d9cf00e06e38a4847e503327 ∂06-Jun-89 0718 GD.WHY@forsythe.stanford.edu FYI-- IN MODERATION NETWORK and Communication Services Announcement. Received: from jessica.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 6 Jun 89 07:18:11 PDT Received: from forsythe.Stanford.EDU by jessica.Stanford.EDU with TCP; Tue, 6 Jun 89 07:16:05 PDT Date: Tue, 6 Jun 89 07:16:20 PDT To: nag@jessica.Stanford.EDU From: "Bill Yundt" <GD.WHY@forsythe.stanford.edu> Subject: FYI-- IN MODERATION NETWORK and Communication Services Announcement.

Any interest in this service? The provider will be offering a special arrangement for Stanford and other BARRNet members......Bill ----------------------------------- To: NETHAX@JESSICA, G.GORIN@MACBETH, NAG@JESSICA FORWARDED MESSAGE 06/05/89 12:49 FROM GEOFF@FERNWOOD.MPK.CA.US "the terminal of Geoff Goodfellow": FYI-- IN MODERATION NETWORK and Communication Services Announcement. Received: by Forsythe.Stanford.EDU; Mon, 5 Jun 89 12:49:43 PDT Received: from LOCALHOST.MPK.CA.US by fernwood.MPK.CA.US at Mon, 5 Jun 89 12:48:29 -0700. (5.61.11/IDA-1.2.8.26) id AA19186 for gd.why@forsythe.stanford.edu via SMTP Message-Id: <8906051948.AA19186@fernwood.MPK.CA.US> To: gd.why@forsythe.stanford.edu Subject: FYI-- IN MODERATION NETWORK and Communication Services Announcement. Date: Mon, 05 Jun 89 12:48:27 PDT From: the terminal of Geoff Goodfellow <geoff@fernwood.mpk.ca.us> (Hi Bill, Here's a copy of the release for your information. BARRNET quid-pro-quo proposal to you Real Soon Now... Geoff) ANTERIOR TECHNOLOGY TO OFFER NEW COMMUNICATIONS AND INFORMATION SERVICES MENLO PARK, Calif. -- June 5, 1989 -- Anterior Technology today introduced the IN MODERATION NETWORK(TM) and related communications services. The IN MODERATION NETWORK offers a moderated, filtered, and cleaned-up information flow of USENET netnews groups and Internet mailing lists. "Our networked discussion streams have become veritable Love Canals," said Geoffrey S. Goodfellow, President of Anterior Technology and founder of the IN MODERATION NETWORK. "Our network discussions all too often spark flame fests where participants take shots and blasts at one another. The shrapnel and debris have been driving main line contributors and readers away. Researchers and developers no longer have the time or inclination to wade through the toxic waste of included text, personal attacks, over stuffed armchair postulations, conjectures and speculations. The IN MODERATION NETWORK will function as a sewage treatment plant for the network discussion forums in the Internet and USENET netnews communities. IN MODERATION NETWORK moderators will cull the raw message flow for the precious metals and jewels. Only contributions of value will be passed on to subscriber sites of the IN MODERATION NETWORK." Anterior Technology will be offering the IN MODERATION NETWORK as a value added service in support of the research and development communities of the Internet and USENET networks. Goodfellow comments, "The Internet links the greatest collection of researchers, developers and computer resources in the world. One is working to interface a microprocessor controlled toaster with TCP/IP just for fun; others are developing advanced supercomputer applications and exchanging research results with colleagues around the world. Our network discussion forums have increased in volume and decreased in the number of valuable contributions. The networked discussion forums of the Internet and USENET have lost intrinsic value as a result. The on-line forums started out with the high-quality material that the network users want to see -- the current trends downward need to be reversed." The Internet provides worldwide interconnection of more than 700 local and wide area networks, including the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency Network (ARPANET), Defense Data Network (MILNET), National Science Foundation Network (NSFNET), Computer Science Net (CSNET/BITNET) and others. Many universities, research centers and government agencies are interconnected via the Internet. AT&T, Digital Equipment Corporation, IBM, Hewlett Packard, SUN Microsystems and other companies engaged in R&D are on the Internet. It is estimated the Internet connects over 100,000 computers that interoperate with each other via the suite of protocols known as TCP/IP. The Internet's component computer systems range in size from PCs and workstations, to mainframes and supercomputers. USENET is an international information network, primarily composed of computers running the UNIX(TM) and MS-DOS operating systems. USENET systems exchange information on a dial-up basis with UUCP (the UNIX-to-UNIX system Copy Protocol) and via the Internet with the Network News Transfer Protocol (NNTP). The Internet and USENET networks provide research, technical, and recreational discussion forums that are valuable sources of information and help. USENET's discussion news groups alone, called "netnews," exchange information at the rate of approximately six million characters a day. There are an estimated 572,000 USENET readers and contributors worldwide. Goodfellow is currently in the process of signing up group moderators and experts for the IN MODERATION NETWORK. Moderators will act as editors and filterers, and will provide moderation for discussions. Moderators will also call on experts in particular topic areas to make contributions to ongoing discussions. IN MODERATION NETWORK member sites will have the right to participate in the value added IN MODERATION NETWORK hierarchy of netnews groups and mailing lists. The cost to participate in the moderated network initially is $720 annually per site. The IN MODERATION NETWORK and Communication Services will be fully operational on July 5th, 1989. To receive IN MODERATION NETWORK material, a member company or institution can arrange a feed from an existing IN MODERATION NETWORK member. Alternatively, Anterior Technology also offers subscriptions to its Communications Services, whereby new member sites connect directly with Anterior Technology in Menlo Park, California for $35/month and $3/hour. A dedicated MIPS-M/1000 computer system, a high throughput, 10 million instructions per second RISC-based computing engine serves as the nexus for the In Moderation Network and communications services. The system can communicate with member sites via the Internet with TCP/IP or on a dial-up basis with UUCP at 19,200, 2400, or 1200 bps. The IN MODERATION NETWORK is in the process of making additional arrangements with commercial timesharing and information service providers to market its news streams to end users via other electronic networks. Anterior Technology has created an advisory board for the IN MODERATION NETWORK. The advisory board includes network community luminaries VINTON G. CERF, Vice-President of the Corporation for National Research Initiatives, inventor of TCP/IP, Principle Scientist at DARPA-IPTO, and developer of MCI-Mail; DAVID J. FARBER, Professor of Computer and Information Science and Electrical Engineering - University of Pennsylvania, a founder of CSNET, Chairman of the National Science Foundation Policy Advisory Board's Networking Subcommittee; DANIEL C. LYNCH, President and founder of Advanced Computing Environments, operator of the Interop conferences; JOHN ROMKEY of Epilogue Technology, founder of FTP Software, author of PC/TCP; and EINAR STEFFERUD, President and founder of Network Management Associates. Geoffrey S. Goodfellow is a former member of the Senior Research Staff of the Computer Science Laboratory at SRI International, Menlo Park, California. He was a Principal Investigator of computer security and networking projects at SRI from 1974-1986. In 1988 he ended a 2 year sabbatical to found Anterior Technology. Goodfellow co-authored the "Hackers Dictionary, A Guide To The World of Computer Wizards" with Richard M. Stallman, Guy L. Steele Jr., et al. Additional information about Anterior Technology's IN MODERATION NETWORK and Communications Services may be obtained by calling or sending mail to: UUCP fernwood!imn-request Anterior Technology Internet imn-request@Fernwood.MPK.CA.US P.O. Box 1206 MCI Mail Geoff Menlo Park, CA 94026-1206 Telex 65 01 03 73 91 (415) 328-5615 IN MODERATION NETWORK is a trademark of Anterior Technology. UNIX is a trademark of AT&T Bell Laboratories.

PDheader:1989-06-13 21:04:00-07:00 ca8c5c8c0810ba260d2ca391e2c407ea ∂13-Jun-89 2104 GA.JRG@Forsythe.Stanford.EDU Re: NEWS postings suspended Received: from Forsythe.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 13 Jun 89 21:04:54 PDT Date: Tue, 13 Jun 89 21:03:39 PDT To: LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU From: "June Genis" <GA.JRG@Forsythe.Stanford.EDU> Subject: Re: NEWS postings suspended

Les, Forgot to tell you that I got a brief note from John Sack indicating that he is working on trying to keep the wire service going. Aparently money is a sticking point as they want us to pay more if it will officially be a whole campus service rather than a small community. /June

PDheader:1989-06-13 22:04:00-07:00 23c91cf1fc5774a66a2ff00fac8134b1 ∂13-Jun-89 2204 andy@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU federalist paper and US code refs Received: from Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 13 Jun 89 22:04:26 PDT Received: by Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (5.59/25-eef) id AA00225; Tue, 13 Jun 89 22:02:55 PDT Date: Tue, 13 Jun 89 22:02:55 PDT From: Andy Freeman <andy@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU> Message-Id: <8906140502.AA00225@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU> To: les@sail Subject: federalist paper and US code refs

The Federalist Papers 27, 28, 29 and 46 talk about the 2nd amendment as an individual right. US Code title 10 section 311 (10 USC 311): (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female officers of the National Guard. (b) The classes of the militia are: (1) The organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and (2) The unorganized militia which consists of members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia. Then, there's the question of what "well-regulated" means and whether that's relevant. One can make a pretty strong argument that when the constitution was written, it meant "able to shoot straight". If so, does that affect what the amendment means? Like many 2nd amendment questions, it depends on how the first clause modifies the rest of the amendment. As always, does original intent matter? The "collective" interpretation doesn't make much sense to me anyway. Why do states have to be guaranteed the right to form military units? Surely these units can't be used to secede or against other states, so the collective interpretation merely says that the feds must let them exist, when any rational fed govt would. Moreover, state troopers, which are justified by police powers, not the 2nd, can serve every function that the national guard serves. Therefore, if one accepts a collective interpretation, the amendment is meaningless. (The 3rd is obsolete now, but may come into play as the drug war escalates.) Have you ever looked at crime stats? (The six times more likely to shoot a family member than a burglar is completely bogus.) -andy

PDheader:1989-06-14 20:01:00-07:00 5aa61b268c0f4b1b92ca97f0748a78a3 ∂14-Jun-89 2001 andy@polya.Stanford.EDU federalist paper and US code refs Received: from polya.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 14 Jun 89 20:01:38 PDT Received: by polya.Stanford.EDU (5.61/25-eef) id AA20391; Wed, 14 Jun 89 20:02:00 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 89 20:02:00 -0700 From: Andy Freeman <andy@polya.Stanford.EDU> Message-Id: <8906150302.AA20391@polya.Stanford.EDU> To: LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU In-Reply-To: Les Earnest's message of 14 Jun 89 1222 PDT <Anphv@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> Subject: federalist paper and US code refs

>> Have you ever looked at crime stats? (The six times more likely >> to shoot a family member than a burglar is completely bogus.) >What is the basis of the alleged bogusity? -Les First, I left out a phrase which would have made the bogosity more obvious. For "family member", read "family member or friend". The comparison is bogus because it is an apples and oranges comparison. The "six times" side includes things that are not relevant to gun-ownership, as well as some things that are good, while the "burglar" doesn't include most of the self-protection uses of guns. Therefore, the comparison does not support the argument that guns are used more often for bad things than for good things, let alone the argument that control would affect the bad things. (It should be obvious that gun-control will reduce good and neutral acts by otherwise law-abiding citizens. Enforcement is a crucial issue.) "Shoot a family member or friend" includes suicides, justifiable and excusable homicides, accidents, as well as murder and manslaughter. Japanese experience proves that guns don't facilitate, let alone cause, suicides. If you don't like cross-cultural comparisons, just look at male and female suicide in the US. Men don't commit as many suicides, yet they are far more likely to use a gun to do so. I think there's a similar phenomena in elderly suicides. In short, suicides and guns have, at best, a tenuous connection. Many accidents are a bad thing, and if mandatory training were proposed in a way that was not intended as a first step to bans, I'd support it. (I trust you'll agree that subjective discression, such as "donated to my reelection" or "politically powerful", is a bad thing.) However, the stats show that, ignoring hunting accidents (which don't happen in the home even though they're often counted that way and are suffered by people who have undergone mandatory safety training), most accidents are suffered by gun-criminals and gun-criminal wannabees, AKA the sort of person who won't be affected by legal restrictions. The "child shoots himself/family member" accident happens, but it doesn't dominate the stats. In fact, accidents as a whole are fairly rare - they're running about 1,600 fatalities/year and decreasing steadily. Drownings are far more common, yet more people have access to guns than are exposed to drowning risks. In any event, "shoot a family member or friend" is a wrongheaded way to look at things, as well as somewhat dishonest as "acquaintance" in the FBI stats is translated to "friend". People commit crimes on people they are around most, namely family and others they know. Moreover, crime-related shootings (two crooks shooting it out over some disagreement regarding illegal activity), especially in the drug biz, dominate shootings and deaths, yet these are usually between biz/social associates, AKA acquaintances. (As the BATF field officers I talk with say, if you don't want to get shot, don't deal drugs.) To claim that their experience is representative of the average person's gun experience is dishonest. "Kill a burglar" does not include "kill an attacker" which is the most common form of lethal self-defense in the US. We do have a severe spouse abuse problem in the US; when a husband beats his wife, you can bet lots of money that he will do so again, and more severely. Like it or not, a gun often used to break the cycle, and it isn't used by the batterer. (Feel free to come up with some social benefit that outweighs the cost of letting these women get beat to death. Heck, I wish they'd run away too, but I'm not going to cry too much that they eliminate the problem instead. Like legal abortion, it is better than the "on the street" alternatives.) Moreover, legitimate self-defense with guns is not like gun-crime in at least one significant way; the good guys are less likely to shoot. A successful self-defense with a gun is much less likely to result in shots fired, or death or injury, than a gun-crime. If you look only at deaths and injuries, you'd think that gun-crime was more common than gun-self-defense; the opposite is true. -andy

PDheader:1989-07-11 13:56:00-07:00 62d1989e53ee34738f67b6983f414ecb ∂11-Jul-89 1356 Mailer Newborn ownership in a Darwinian perspective To: su-etc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>

Let me rock the boat a bit by suggesting that decisions on life and death questions should be based not on theology but on the practical effects on survival of the species. As I discussed in the series of postings on civil liberties last year, the value of life is relatively small at both the beginning and the end of life. It is of greatest value after the person has been trained but has not yet contributed substantially to the society in which he or she lives. The investment in a newborn baby is greater than in a 3 month old fetus but is still relatively small and this investment has been made almost entirely by one person: the mother. The baby is completely dependent on outside support for survival and while this little thing may be cute and cuddly (and most of us have all been programmed to protect such charming creatures), in my view a newborn baby is not a "person" -- that will take time and an even larger investment. It seems to me that a newborn baby should be treated as the property of the mother for, say, the first 6 months of life. Of course, quite a few will die within this period, but those who make it would become persons and subject to full legal protection as such. Before that transition, the mother would be free to sell, kill, or otherwise dispose of her property and could also sue others for any damage to it. No, I'm not kidding. Recognition of newborns as property would solve a number of problems in a very practical way. Inasmuch as birth is a well defined event, this also avoids some of the problems associated with counting forward from an imaginary date of conception to determine the date of "personhood." Of course, this proposal is entirely too sensible to be seriously considered by politicians. Les Earnest

PDheader:1989-07-21 19:56:00-07:00 4ec3f6606b9375b4b2dc3a811ab14dfb ∂21-Jul-89 1956 Mailer What is a racist? To: su-etc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>

In my view, a racist is anyone who believes that individuals can be uniquely classified as being members of some particular race. This includes anyone who compiles and publishes statistics based on racial classifications of populations, such as the federal government, Stanford University, Shockley, and hordes of bleeding heart liberals and conservatives. -Les Earnest

PDheader:1989-07-22 17:40:00-07:00 f8353a504102a52f0d7b5810404af4bd ∂22-Jul-89 1740 @Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU:gauss@homxc.att.com Re: Affordable Housing Near Stanford University??? Received: from Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 22 Jul 89 17:40:29 PDT Received: from [192.20.225.1] by Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (5.59/25-eef) id AA02543; Sat, 22 Jul 89 17:38:14 PDT Message-Id: <8907230038.AA02543@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU> From: gauss@homxc.att.com Date: Sat, 22 Jul 89 20:21 EDT To: Les Earnest <arpa!Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU!les@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU> Subject: Re: Affordable Housing Near Stanford University???

From arpa!Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU!les Thu Jul 20 18:29:58 PDT 1989 Received: by Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (5.59/25-eef) id AA07456; Thu, 20 Jul 89 18:29:58 PDT Date: Thu, 20 Jul 89 18:29:58 PDT From: Les Earnest <les@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU> Message-Id: <8907210129.AA07456@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU> To: gauss@homxc.att.com Subject: Re: Affordable Housing Near Stanford University??? Newsgroups: soc.singles,soc.college,alt.california In-Reply-To: <2451@cbnewsh.ATT.COM> Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University Cc: Status: RO In article <2451@cbnewsh.ATT.COM> you write: >I just accepted a job at Stanford. I haven't looked for a place to live >yet, but I've heard about the prices. Do they really get $1500 a month >for a studio apartment out there? You can get them for half that, I believe, depending on your standards. >Anybody know about living on the other side (west) of 280? Almost no housing there. > Nice beaches? Yes, but often foggy and always with COLD water. Gimme a ring when you get here! (415) 941-3984. -- Les Earnest Phone: 415 941-3984 Internet: Les@Sail.Stanford.edu USMail: 12769 Dianne Dr. UUCP: . . . decwrl!Sail.Stanford.edu!Les Los Altos Hills, CA 94022 Les-- Thanks for the reply. I will send it on to George who is in Vermont packing his truck for the long voyage west. He was ski instructing there for a couple of years. Are you any relationship to the famous Les Earnest who was at Blacker House at Caltech in the early 1950's? I was there too. Ed

PDheader:1989-07-31 15:14:00-07:00 8f5b24e772e4c3743b0c91c597a478a8 ∂31-Jul-89 1514 LES re: Kids and Caltech To: gauss@HOMXC.ATT.COM [In reply to message sent Mon, 24 Jul 89 08:56 EDT.]

Ed, Thanks for the update and sorry for my slow response -- I spent last week in Seattle handling appeals at the National Track Championships of the U.S. Cycling Federation. Yes, I was the principal bureaucrat of the Stanford A.I. Lab. from 1966 through 1980. After I left, the lab essentially disintegrated. (Incidentally, I recently published some mildly amusing incidents from that period and earlier in Communications of the ACM, Feb. '89, under the title "Can computers cope with human races?") You might have run across my #1 son, Mark, at some point -- he went to the University of Alaska in 1976 to study geology. He married a another student there, who is Yup'ik and comes from Nelson Island. They now have four kids. He later spent several years working for the Alaska Senate Finance Committee. Two months ago he became city manager of Bethel. I did a Silicon Valley start-up beginning in late 1980 in order to complete my education. I founded Imagen Corporation, which brought the first inexpensive laser printing systems into the U.S. market. Unfortunately, the venture capitalists had never heard of laser printers and didn't believe in them -- after all, neither IBM, DEC, nor Apple had such a product. Conseqently, we were forced to bootstrap, which severely limited our growth. It also made us vulnerable to getting stepped on by the big guys when they entered the market, which they did eventually. I returned to Stanford in 1985 to do half time research in parallel processing and be Associate Chairman of Computer Science for the other half. Unfortunately, the Chairman later decided that he wanted me to become a full time bureaucrat, which was not one of my aspirations, so I decided to retire last year but keep an office at Stanford. My company was sold, which gives me sufficient financial security that I can choose what I want to do. My wife and I did an month-long trek in the Himalayas (Nepal) this Spring and I'm now considering getting involved in another start-up. The giant Stanford dish that you used to run around is still there, though I believe it has not been used for many years. If your little one would like to have a place to hang out while he finds longer term accomodations, feel free to aim him at us. We have a couple of pharmacy interns staying with us currently, but they will leave in 3 weeks; in any case, we have an extra bedroom. Cheers, Les Phone: 415 941-3984 Address: 12769 Dianne Drive; Los Altos Hills, CA 94022

PDheader:1989-08-01 11:33:00-07:00 4ec21ca4cd744170c359440f644c0662 ∂01-Aug-89 1133 gauss@homxc.att.com re: Kids and Caltech Received: from arpa.att.com by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 1 Aug 89 11:33:21 PDT From: gauss@homxc.att.com Date: Tue, 1 Aug 89 10:42 EDT To: Les Earnest <arpa!SAIL.Stanford.EDU!LES> Subject: re: Kids and Caltech

Les-- Son George, who is somewhere en route in his battered pickup truck, once decided to cycle from Fairbanks to Denver. He made it to Sun Valley where all of his belongings got stolen. He worked for Vermont Cycle Tours for a couple of summers and was a tour leader for them in France. We bought some Imagen printers here a few years back and I owned some some shares for a while. I am supposed to be predicting the use of hypothetical multi megabit data networks for the next ten years. We could build a one gigabit network today if we were assured of a few billion a year revenue. The fundemental problem is that AT&T middle management, and the process that promotes them, was created in the monopoly days and their mind set is technology dictates markets. During the decade I pimped for the University of Alaska Computer Center I quickly learned the reverse axiom. If your Alaskan son took any of the beginning Fortran courses it is 80% likely he took it from me. One of the reasons I fled to Bell Labs was to excape teaching beginning Fortran. For about a decade 90% of U/Alaska students had some sort of beginning computing course from me, as did school teachers, new faculty and deans and directors. I had three "pet" villeges in rural Alaska: Dillingham, Nulato, and Nome. Nulato, which was totally Athabaskan except for six school teachers, was the most bushy. Working through the local math teacher I pushed computing as a stepping stone into the "dominant culture". Sometimes it worked. I used to load up my little ski plane with computing junk and fly it out to the bush schools. I suppose this was the great adventure of my life. I wrote a novel about the Fat Moose Flying Service as it might have been in the 1930s and my agent is trying to sell it to the publishers. The rejection letters from the big houses say that they like the writing but do not think the subject has broad enough interest. Could you determine if Michael Lieber, Dept. of Pathology, Stanford Medical School, has an e-mail address? He is George's contact there, and I have been receiving a lot of interesting replies from his posting. Most seem to think he has a chance of finding a place he can afford within biking distance. I have almost lost track of the Caltech people. I see Gary Boyd occasionally. He is a laser guru here and was in Ricketts House graduating in EE in 1954. I saw Floyd Humphery a year ago at Carnegie Mellon where he had been Department Head for CS and EE. Floyd got his Ph.D. in chemistry while we were there, but worked on magnetic memory devices most of his life. Chek Beuf, who graduated in ME in 1955, is now an MD in Wyoming. I had lunch with him 8 years ago when we drove down from Alaska. Nice to hear from you. I have become sort of an e-mail junkie and have great hopes for the Gore Bill that will make a super Apranet. The politics of national telecommunications has proven most educational. Ed

PDheader:1989-08-02 13:52:00-07:00 4aa5c7cd6f77fe5439811ca67b72c580 ∂02-Aug-89 1352 LES re: Kids and Caltech To: gauss@HOMXC.ATT.COM [In reply to message sent Tue, 1 Aug 89 10:42 EDT.]

Ed, A local acquaitance bicycled from here to Fairbanks and back about 10 years ago and claimed to have enjoyed it. I've thought about doing it one way, but haven't found the time yet. I do ride from here to San Diego along the coast every year or two. I'm surprised that you could find Imagen shares -- they were never publicly traded until the company was sold to a competitor (QMS) last year. Your work sounds like fun but I do not envy your having to deal with AT&T's stodgy middle management -- I had that honor some 30 years ago when I was working for MIT on designing the SAGE air defense system and had to work out some digital communication problems with them. I don't know if son Mark took the Fortran course; I'll ask him next time we talk. I too had the experience of teaching the introductory programming course at Stanford a number of times, but we used a dialect of Algol-60 back then. I recall that those who had the most trouble were not the students who had never programmed but those who had learned Fortran. The department later switched to Pascal for the introductory course and now is using Lisp, I believe. Of course, there is still a Fortran course here, taught by the comp. center, so that physicists and engineers can learn how to do "real" programming. Michael Lieber is not in Stanford's central register of email addresses. Of course, the medical school is pretty independent and they may not have bothered to list them. He must be fairly new -- I see that he was not listed in last year's Faculty-Staff Directory. Of our contemporaries, I see Tom Stockebrand (former Dabney wildman) occasionally. We worked together at MIT for awhile before he went to DEC, when they spun off from our lab. Tom now lives in Albuquerque, still working for DEC, and visits once in awhile. Perry Vartanian lives nearby (or did) but I lost track of him about 12 years ago, after he quit being a big shot at Ampex and formed his own company. If you come here to visit George sometime, let me know. We always have some cold beer as well as an abundant wine cellar. Cheers, Les

PDheader:1989-08-03 21:47:00-07:00 ed19a3b3dea225aff087f951b18fd26d ∂03-Aug-89 2147 jain@Portia.stanford.edu Proposal for a new series of moderated newsgroups Received: from Portia.stanford.edu by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 3 Aug 89 21:47:48 PDT Received: by Portia.stanford.edu (5.61/25-eef) id AA06835; Thu, 3 Aug 89 21:44:50 -0700 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 89 21:44:50 -0700 From: Deepak Jain <jain@Portia.stanford.edu> Message-Id: <8908040444.AA06835@Portia.stanford.edu> To: kolk@jessica, les@sail, reuling@med-isg, schaefer@sumex-aim, weening@polya Subject: Proposal for a new series of moderated newsgroups

Proposal For a New Family of Stanford Newsgroups ------------------------------------------------ This proposal envisions creation of a new family of moderated newsgroups for the Stanford Bulletin Board System. In the following passages I first describe the motivation behind this proposal and the intended nature of such groups. In the second part of the proposal, I propose a specific newsgroup, su.digest.sci, if the proposal for creation of a new subtree is accepted in principle. Electronic bulletin boards (bboards) are an excellent means of exchanging information, debating issues, providing and getting assistance, and communicating one's opinion to a sizable, diverse, and intelligent audience. This powerful medium of electronic publication is, however, not without its pitfalls. Unlike conventional publishing avenues, posting to (unmoderated) bboards is unrestricted. This has advantages as well as disadvantages. While it adds to the spontaneity and provides everyone a chance to express his or her opinions, a newsgroup may soon get inundated with largely irrelevant and meaningless postings if the contributors do not exercise careful judgment in the material they choose to post to the group. In fact, on an average bboard, one has to wade through a large number of `flames,' personal accusations, and articles without a substantial and meaningful content, in order to find one sensible article. The universal complaint of low signal-to-noise ratio is a reflection of this phenomenon. Furthermore, poor quality articles seem to have a self-sustaining behavior. For example, once a `flame' gets started, it soon escalates into a full-blown `flame-war,' propagating itself and having a domino effect. There are other problems too. Discussion often wanders from the original subject, and the relevance and appropriateness of the new discussion to a newsgroup has to be questioned. (A case in point here is a recent discussion on interviewing techniques on misc.jobs.misc which turned into a debate on Ada!) Sometimes, contributors cross-post their articles to many bboards in the hopes of reaching the widest possible audience. This means that any bboard even remotely connected to the subject of the article will get the article, thus defeating the very purpose of specialized bboards for different topics. All this results in a significant wastage of time on the part of the readers, thus necessitating some means of avoiding the junk, without missing useful articles. While self-discipline on everyone's part is theoretically a possible solution to the problem, it is not a viable option in view of the huge number of people who contribute to the newsgroups. The "Subject" and "Keyword" headers can prove useful in sifting through the contents of a group. But, unfortunately, they are normally rendered useless in the absence of a descriptive "Subject" line or "Keywords." Instances where a responder to an article has not cared to appropriately modify the original article's "Subject" are frequent. Thus it is not unusual to find a "Subject" line, which after having undergone a few iterations, has nothing in common with its article. As yet, the best solution we have to the above problems is a human filter. Moderated newsgroups, wherein the articles have to meet certain quality standards (as determined by a moderator or moderators) before inclusion, have been quite successful on Usenet -- the most notable example being "rec.humor.funny" (a moderated newsgroup estimated to have the highest readership of any Usenet newsgroups). I propose that a family of moderated newsgroups be started on the Stanford Electronic Bulletin Board System also, to provide an alternative to the unmoderated newsgroups. Members of the Stanford community may propose creation of a moderated newsgroup of which they want to be the moderator, and if the proposal is sound, the newsgroup will be created on an experimental basis for a fixed duration. If there is adequate readership of the group at the end of this trial period, the group will be continued; otherwise, it will be discontinued. Of course, the system of human moderators isn't infallible either. A moderated newsgroup will reflect the tastes and preferences of one individual. However, ultimately the `market' forces will prevail. A group providing a useful service to a significant proportion of the bboard reader community will survive; the ones not deemed to be useful will be cancelled in the wake of inadequate `subscription.' Part II: Proposal for Creation of su.digest.sci ----------------------------------------------- I propose creation of a new newsgroup su.digest.sci, a moderated newsgroup which will feature consistently high quality material of general scientific interest. The inspiration for the group comes from "rec.humor.funny" and "Reader's Digest." Like "rec.humor.funny," the group will be moderated and I will decide what gets posted to the group and what does not. Unlike "rec.humor.funny," the material for the group will mostly come from postings in other newsgroups. Thus, like "Reader's Digest," the group will essentially be a compilation. I foresee science-oriented groups like the `sci' subtree (sci.astro, sci.space, etc.), ca.earthquakes, comp.ai, etc., to be the main source of material for the group. Direct submissions will also be considered. The included articles will usually be free from the technical jargon of the field. All that will be necessary for enjoying the group will be an interest in science and a curiosity about diverse disciplines. If the proposal is considered favorably, I will prepare a detailed policy statement for consideration. I am not too religious about the name: "su.magazine.sci," "su.sci," "su.whatever.sci," anything which appropriately describes the content and the nature of the group will do. Depending upon initial response to the group, solicited articles from Stanford community will also be included in the group in future. Readers will also be able to recommend articles for inclusion, though my decision will be final. Please consider this proposal and let me know of your response. If any clarifications are desired, I can be reached at jain@portia or jain@cive. Deepak Jain Graduate Student, Civil Engineering

PDheader:1989-08-05 16:32:00-07:00 2b3f19871a2bb83d31f206c9e5710696 ∂05-Aug-89 1632 Mailer Fetuses' rights To: su-etc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>

I was delighted to see in today's S-J Merc. that a lawyer has filed suit contending that the State of Missouri is illegally imprisoning a female inmate's fetus. The suit cites Missouri's anti-abortion law that says that life begins at conception. Lawyer Michael Box stated that "If life begins at conception, then fetuses are supposed to be like everyone else -- they're a person and have constitutional rights." The Missouri law, key portions of which were upheld last month by the U.S. Supreme Court, extends to the unborn "all the rights, privileges, and immunities available to other persons." The suit, filed on behalf of Lovetta Ferrar's unborn child, contends that it has been imprisoned at the Chillicothe Correctional Center without having been charged with a crime, allowed an attorney, convicted, or sentenced and that it is being denied adequate diet and medical care because of conditions at the prison. I will enjoy watching the anti-choice folks rationalize around this one. -Les

PDheader:1989-08-09 14:42:00-07:00 c9c702393e469be712a2f243fc4f3723 ∂09-Aug-89 1442 @gang-of-four.Stanford.EDU:csmith@corniche.Stanford.EDU AP Newswire Service Received: from gang-of-four.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 9 Aug 89 14:42:41 PDT Received: from corniche.Stanford.EDU by gang-of-four.Stanford.EDU (5.0/25-eef) id AA01808; Wed, 9 Aug 89 14:43:16 PDT Received: by corniche.Stanford.EDU (4.0/inc-1.0) id AA08569; Wed, 9 Aug 89 14:28:25 PDT From: csmith@corniche.Stanford.EDU (Cathy Smith) Message-Id: <8908092128.AA08569@corniche.Stanford.EDU> To: les@go4.stanford.edu Subject: AP Newswire Service Date: Wed, 09 Aug 89 14:28:24 -0700

Les, I work with Ralph Gorin, and he has asked me to find out about the current arrangement CSD has for an AP newswire feed. AIR is investigating the feasibility of offering such a service to the wider Stanford academic community. Have you been correctly identified as the person in CSD who can tell me about this? If not, can you tell me who I might get the information from? I'd be most appreciative of any assistance you can give me. Thanks, Cathy Smith 3-4378

PDheader:1989-08-09 15:03:00-07:00 d33d9de1b38236be701cbe8495c522c9 ∂09-Aug-89 1503 LES re: AP Newswire Service To: csmith@CORNICHE.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Wed, 09 Aug 89 14:28:24 -0700.]

Cathy, I know as much about the AP newswire arrangements as anyone, inasmuch as I set it up originally, though I am now officially retired from CSD. If you wish to discuss terms with an AP representative, their phone number in S.F. is 621-7432 and the person who I used to deal with there was Marty Thompson. Assuming that it can be managed financially, I suggest upgrading the service to one of their faster wires, which carry more news than the clunker that we have now. I suggest also that you include a wirephoto subscription, so that users with suitable workstations can see pictures as well. In order to facilitate AP's agreement, it may be desirable to still call this an ``experimental news service,'' which will be fairly accurate in view of the expansion in scope. This will enable AP to rationalize continuing to let us have it at reasonable rates and to reassure their commercial customers that we are not competing in the market. It almost certainly will be necessary to restrict access to the newswires to people with accounts on Stanford machines and, if you decide to share costs with the users, it would be restricted to just those machines that pay your subscription fee. I will be glad to help further, including external negotiations, if you wish. -Les Earnest

PDheader:1989-08-28 07:31:00-07:00 a35e659318f53bbcea3a2ed165f875e2 ∂28-Aug-89 0731 gauss@homxc.att.com re: Kids and Caltech Received: from arpa.att.com by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 28 Aug 89 07:31:37 PDT From: gauss@homxc.att.com Date: Mon, 28 Aug 89 09:39 EDT To: Les Earnest <arpa!SAIL.Stanford.EDU!LES> Subject: re: Kids and Caltech

Les-- Son George, big, strong, and currly yellow hair and beard, should be arriving out there about now. I gave him your address. I haven't the wildest idea if he will call. I got a postcard from Seattle where he was going to visit some young lady. I guess when you are young and unattached, the shortest route from Vermont to Palo Alto goes by every mysterious lady that you know. Apparently as a ski instructor (x-country) and bike tour guide, you meet many such ladies but you rarely get to know them very well. I am looking for a Computer Center to direct again. I am making it to the final selections fairly well. One school is still remembering the days of the giant central host and I fear that they are looking for a Director who can restore the good old days. My crystal ball says that every user hates the tyrants who run giant hosts and wants their own super-micro on their desk. Directors had better be in the network business. I was wrong about owning your stock. It was for a different company with a similar name. Around here we used your Imagen printers almost as soon as they came out. I think we payed $30,000 for them. Now we are using QMS-PS 800 IIs which run about 1/10 that. They are shared right now, but smaller and smaller groups are getting their own. I suspect that there is a market for 1,000 units in this building alone. Five years ago we had 2. Ed

PDheader:1989-08-28 18:54:00-07:00 bc2aea4a4a12d4377d12db28d88bf185 ∂28-Aug-89 1854 LES re: Kids and Caltech To: gauss@HOMXC.ATT.COM [In reply to message sent Mon, 28 Aug 89 09:39 EDT.]

Ed, Good enough; we'll be happy to give George a hand if he wants it. Yes, the Imagen printers were repriced to just under $30k as soon as we hired a marketing person; the first one we sold to Bell labs was at $18k. They are now back down to a still lower price but frankly I think that the competition now offers a better deal for most purposes. I agree that the day of the big comp center seems to be passing. In fact, the one in Computer Science at Stanford, which I helped reorganize a few years ago, will be dismantled just 3 days from now. The demise of these institutions is attributable to two main factors, I believe: 1. Many people seem to prefer workstations to shared mainframes even when the performance that they get is much poorer. The reason for this tolerance is that they know the machine is working just for them. 2. They don't have to deal with arrogant system wizards and bureaucrats. Of course the latter issue cuts both ways -- they no longer have a system wizard around when they need one. It is fortunate and probably necessary that networking has developed along with workstations. Without it, users would be truly isolated. Cheers, Les

PDheader:1989-08-29 04:37:00-07:00 d59527a593015299709e9829741f2b64 ∂29-Aug-89 0437 gauss@homxc.att.com re: Kids and Caltech Received: from arpa.att.com by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 29 Aug 89 04:37:08 PDT From: gauss@homxc.att.com Date: Tue, 29 Aug 89 07:25 EDT To: Les Earnest <arpa!SAIL.Stanford.EDU!LES> Subject: re: Kids and Caltech

Les-- In yesturday's mail was a post card from the traveling kid. He has arrived in Palo Alto and rented a room in Portola Valley which he says is as close to his Vermont style of living that he could find. My problem of this morning is to guess at the customer's willingness to pay vs outage time for a 150Mbps network. In the past we used very expensive solutions to get very reliable service, and then made a profit as we passed the cost on to the consumer. But we need to learn new tricks in the competative market. On the basis of my study we will commit great sums of money for electronics. I don't know how much this problem has to do with the classical EE education's loop or mesh equations and computing everything to ten decimal places. Ed

PDheader:1989-09-26 14:52:00-07:00 b4db9bf3c93d4bcd6cfd1dfe91ca06db ∂26-Sep-89 1452 rainbow@Sun.COM greetings Received: from Sun.COM by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 26 Sep 89 14:52:16 PDT Received: from snail.Sun.COM (snail.Corp.Sun.COM) by Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06028; Tue, 26 Sep 89 14:52:47 PDT Received: from eyes.sun.com by snail.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13054; Tue, 26 Sep 89 14:50:36 PDT Received: by eyes.sun.com (4.0/SMI-4.0) id AA12593; Tue, 26 Sep 89 14:53:52 PDT Date: Tue, 26 Sep 89 14:53:52 PDT From: rainbow@Sun.COM (Linda Kaplan) Message-Id: <8909262153.AA12593@eyes.sun.com> To: les@sail.stanford.edu Subject: greetings

a friend just returned from Alaska and has photos to show me - made me think of you and inquire as to your health and general world view these days. Que pasa, hombre? happy trails, Rainbow

PDheader:1989-09-27 17:21:00-07:00 2c3c8eab9fc0d9cf50fa6c081c820638 ∂27-Sep-89 1721 @Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU:S.SALUT@Hamlet.Stanford.EDU Re: Drug testing in the workplace Received: from Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 27 Sep 89 17:21:52 PDT Received: from Hamlet.Stanford.EDU by Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU with SMTP (5.61/25-eef) id AA25230; Wed, 27 Sep 89 17:21:34 -0700 Date: Wed 27 Sep 89 17:22:54-PDT From: Alex Bronstein <S.SALUT@Hamlet.Stanford.EDU> Subject: Re: Drug testing in the workplace To: les@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU In-Reply-To: <11704@polya.Stanford.EDU> Message-Id: <12529700937.12.S.SALUT@Hamlet.Stanford.EDU>

Finally a light in the debate... Glad you sent your msg! (I was in France). By the way, what do you think the chances are for a de-criminalization (I prefer that term to "legalization") of drugs during our lifetime? Alex -------

PDheader:1989-09-28 00:11:00-07:00 42d5e087c60ae329ceb6fd9b314baa9d ∂28-Sep-89 0011 LES re: Drug testing in the workplace To: S.SALUT@HAMLET.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Wed 27 Sep 89 17:22:54-PDT.]

> By the way, what do you think the chances are for a de-criminalization > (I prefer that term to "legalization") of drugs during our lifetime? Perhaps not in my lifetime but very likely in yours. I estimate that the current system can't possibly last past about 2005 -- if it lasts that long, the entire governmental structure will be devoted to either supressing drugs or taking graft to cover up for the distributors. -Les

PDheader:1989-09-28 22:06:00-07:00 c197b7476112a81b6b94690d8406c122 ∂28-Sep-89 2206 LES re: greetings To: rainbow@SUN.COM [In reply to message sent Tue, 26 Sep 89 14:53:52 PDT.]

I've been bashing away at bike racing stuff for the last 2 months and face another 2 months' work in producing the 1990 rule book. I'm taking over supervision of the ACLU hotline now. Planning another trip to Alaska next summer, as the world turns. Selling stock as the market bubbles upward and hoping that it doesn't crash soon. I also hope that the dirty capitalists don't succeed in getting the capital gains tax lowered, but if they do I'll cash in big time. Cheers, Les

PDheader:1989-09-29 11:40:00-07:00 d2ff028d732d48abe382b2e1071881af ∂29-Sep-89 1140 rainbow@Sun.COM re: greetings Received: from Sun.COM by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 29 Sep 89 11:40:12 PDT Received: from snail.Sun.COM (snail.Corp.Sun.COM) by Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08273; Fri, 29 Sep 89 11:41:03 PDT Received: from eyes.sun.com by snail.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AB24083; Fri, 29 Sep 89 11:38:48 PDT Received: by eyes.sun.com (4.0/SMI-4.0) id AA14982; Fri, 29 Sep 89 11:42:07 PDT Date: Fri, 29 Sep 89 11:42:07 PDT From: rainbow@Sun.COM (Linda Kaplan) Message-Id: <8909291842.AA14982@eyes.sun.com> To: LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU Subject: re: greetings

The ACLU hotline - that intrigues me. Are many more companies performing drug-testing (urine samples)? As a condition for employment, or randomly once on the job? After I reeceived your message, I heard a news caster tell us that Bush was victorious - the capital gains tax was lowered. How does that affect you? Do your offspring sees the effects of the oil spill in Alaska? Things at Sun continue to be interesting/entertaining to me. I'm still going to hear lots of rock'n'roll (Grateful Dead, recently a Jefferson Airplane reunion concert), writing some short stories, practicing yoga, starting up a Shakespeace course at Stanford next week with Ron Rebholtz teaching, trying to decide where to go for Thanksgiving. Happy trails, Rainbow

PDheader:1989-09-29 13:39:00-07:00 411741a09313f2fa3f356a4c83de22e0 ∂29-Sep-89 1339 LES re: greetings To: rainbow@SUN.COM [In reply to message sent Fri, 29 Sep 89 11:42:07 PDT.]

.The ACLU hotline - that intrigues me. Are many more .companies performing drug-testing (urine samples)? .As a condition for employment, or randomly once on the job? Both. For example, Big Blue now requires it before employment. I am planning to try to get ACM to take a stand against this practice. .After I reeceived your message, I heard a news caster tell us .that Bush was victorious - the capital gains tax was lowered. .How does that affect you? I have a lot of stock from the company that I founded that is worth more than 1000 times what I paid for it, so this would affect me substantially. .Do your offspring sees the effects of the oil spill in Alaska? Only indirectly -- they live in Western Alaska, on the Bering Sea, which was not affected. However, the barge service that brings them gasoline and fuel oil every summer systematically lied to them, saying that "The barge is on its way" when, in fact, it never started the trip because they could make more money working for Exxon. As a consequence, the villagers ran out of fuel in June, missed most of the fishing season this summer and now have to have fuel flown in at $6 a gallon, which they really can't afford. Thus, the effects of this catastrophe percolate outward. -Les

PDheader:1989-10-17 14:28:00-07:00 2f09109078a6b1251b2f538b8e386f38 ∂17-Oct-89 1428 rainbow@Sun.COM Antarctica Received: from Sun.COM by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 17 Oct 89 14:28:52 PDT Received: from snail.Sun.COM (snail.Corp.Sun.COM) by Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13628; Tue, 17 Oct 89 14:29:55 PDT Received: from eyes.sun.com by snail.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11957; Tue, 17 Oct 89 14:27:34 PDT Received: by eyes.sun.com (4.0/SMI-4.0) id AA04825; Tue, 17 Oct 89 14:30:47 PDT Date: Tue, 17 Oct 89 14:30:47 PDT From: rainbow@Sun.COM (queen of infinite space) Message-Id: <8910172130.AA04825@eyes.sun.com> To: les@sail.stanford.edu Subject: Antarctica

Hi Les - So now my brother wants to go to Antarctica this winter. I said I'd look around, talk to people, help 'im out, ya know? So any useful information you have from what airline, to rental cars, food, hotels, restaurants, highlights, weather, would be most heartily welcome. Thanks Rainbow

PDheader:1989-10-19 12:17:00-07:00 800b8fdb801a17554191beba3b737bea ∂19-Oct-89 1217 bruce%ESE.ESSEX.AC.UK@Forsythe.Stanford.EDU life Received: from Forsythe.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 19 Oct 89 12:17:19 PDT Received: by Forsythe.Stanford.EDU; Thu, 19 Oct 89 12:17:52 PDT Received: from RL.IB by UKACRL.BITNET (Mailer X1.25) with BSMTP id 1990; Thu, 19 Oct 89 17:11:18 BST Received: from RL.IB by UK.AC.RL.IB (Mailer X1.25) with BSMTP id 7208; Thu, 19 Oct 89 17:11:15 BS Via: UK.AC.SX.ESE; 19 OCT 89 17:09:39 BST From: Bruce Anderson <bruce%ESE.ESSEX.AC.UK@Forsythe.Stanford.EDU> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 89 17:06:59 +0100 To: les@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU Subject: life

Les- are you OK? Hoping that you and my other Bay Area friends survived the earthquake. The news we are getting here implies that Oakland and tbe city bore the brunt of it; no info abot the Peninsula or even Santa Cruz really. Bruce

PDheader:1989-10-19 15:41:00-07:00 0a6200dec0364f49a3cbf1b88f61edb4 ∂19-Oct-89 1541 LES re: life To: bruce%ESE.ESSEX.AC.UK@FORSYTHE.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Thu, 19 Oct 89 17:06:59 +0100.]

Bruce, No serious problems here. I happened to be in the kitchen when the action started and saw that the refrigerator was coming toward me, but managed to dance out of its way. We lost a bunch of glassware and some furniture that was in the path of falling cabinets and a speaker that dropped from the ceiling, but there appears to be no serious structural damage to the house. Some of our neighbors were less lucky -- some 30 houses in Los Altos Hills are reported to have structural damage. The reason that you haven't heard much about the Peninsula is that there is relatively little damage here. It is clear that the Peninsula and South Bay were shaken harder than S.F. and Oakland, but building codes have been enforced better down here. The media naturally focus on things that broke spectacularly, most of which were inadequately constructed. Unfortunately, the people who were responsible for the engineering blunders are usually retired or dead before their mistakes become apparent. Anyway, we never lost the phone or gas, got water back in about 12 hours and electricity shortly thereafter, though it has intermittantly gone off a number of times since and I have given up trying to reset all the digital clocks in the house. Highway 280 developed a few new wrinkles near our house, but they are only curb-height and therefore surmountable.

PDheader:1989-11-17 12:19:00-08:00 8fa1f3a6aea8a839423f27b888a8beee ∂17-Nov-89 1219 @Score.Stanford.EDU:pallas@Neon.Stanford.EDU Re: scope of bboard distribution Received: from Score.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 17 Nov 89 12:19:23 PST Received: from Neon.Stanford.EDU by SCORE.STANFORD.EDU with TCP; Fri 17 Nov 89 12:19:02-PST Received: by Neon.Stanford.EDU (5.61/25-eef) id AA03857; Fri, 17 Nov 89 12:18:44 -0800 Date: Fri, 17 Nov 89 12:18:44 -0800 From: Joe Pallas <pallas@Neon.Stanford.EDU> Message-Id: <8911172018.AA03857@Neon.Stanford.EDU> To: jackk@SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU Cc: su-bb@score, pallas@Neon.Stanford.EDU Subject: Re: scope of bboard distribution References: <8911171911.AA20280@shelby.Stanford.EDU>

>It has recently come to my attention that the distribution of the su.gay >bboard is a lot wider than I (and I'm sure , many others) imagined. At >one time, the bboard was limited to Stanford and SRI. Now, it seems, it >is being distributed to other local companies and private individuals. >People may wish to consider this before posting. I've raised this issue before (in a slightly different context), without getting any meaningful response. I think it's very important that people know exactly where the Stanford groups go, which is currently impossible to determine: once news goes off campus, it is not possible to learn or restrict its path. The relationship between the Stanford groups and the surrounding community needs to be clarified, as many people expect from the name that these groups are entirely within Stanford. Likewise, people from outside the university should understand that they are visitors in Stanford groups. joe

PDheader:1989-11-17 14:17:00-08:00 21c1d582e75ce943e22a4e620bbbb66b ∂17-Nov-89 1417 reuling@med.stanford.edu Re: scope of bboard distribution Received: from shelby.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 17 Nov 89 14:17:01 PST Received: from Med.Stanford.EDU by shelby.Stanford.EDU (5.61+/inc-1.0) id AA25006; Fri, 17 Nov 89 14:13:50 -0800 Received: by med.stanford.edu (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA23224; Fri, 17 Nov 89 14:15:25 PST To: Joe Pallas <pallas@neon.stanford.edu> Cc: jackk@shasta.stanford.edu, su-bb@shelby.stanford.edu Subject: Re: scope of bboard distribution In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 17 Nov 89 12:18:44 -0800.

<8911172018.AA03857@Neon.Stanford.EDU> Date: Fri, 17 Nov 89 14:14:07 PST Message-Id: <23212.627344047@med.stanford.edu> From: John Reuling <reuling@med.stanford.edu> Yes. Perhaps we should make some mention of this in the guidelines message that gets posted each month, so that people are aware that their messages are going way beyond Stanford. If it's "not possible to learn or restrict [the] path" of su.* news articles once they leave campus, and if it appears that the sites we feed directly are now passing news on to other non-Stanford sites, I'd rather just cut the feed of su.* for off campus sites. How do other people feel? When we started feeding SRI, didn't we make them promise not to pass those groups outside SRI? Did we make similar arrangements with other organizations when they were given access? What direct feeds to non-Stanford sites are already in place from Shelby? In general, things are getting back to normal rather quickly. -John -Les ps: perhaps we should just rename the su.* groups to be ba.su.*!

PDheader:1989-11-17 14:32:00-08:00 efb6570c419112d183531835eeb77879 ∂17-Nov-89 1432 weening@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU Re: scope of bboard distribution Received: from shelby.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 17 Nov 89 14:32:04 PST Received: from Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU by shelby.Stanford.EDU (5.61+/inc-1.0) id AA25374; Fri, 17 Nov 89 14:28:56 -0800 Received: from LOCALHOST by Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (5.61/inc-1.0) id AA13684; Fri, 17 Nov 89 14:32:18 -0800 Message-Id: <8911172232.AA13684@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU> To: John Reuling <reuling@med.stanford.edu> Cc: Joe Pallas <pallas@neon.stanford.edu>, jackk@shasta.stanford.edu,

su-bb@shelby.stanford.edu Subject: Re: scope of bboard distribution In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 17 Nov 89 14:14:07 -0800. <23212.627344047@med.stanford.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Nov 89 14:32:16 PST From: Joe Weening <weening@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU> I've always been against the wide distribution of su newsgroups, but when I took an informal poll on this issue last year, there was fairly clear sentiment in favor of it. Adding something to the guidelines sounds like a good idea. Who wants to volunteer to write it? When we've agreed to feed su newsgroups to other sites, I don't recall having asked them not to redistribute them further. So it's true that we have not made much effort to restrict the distribution. Nor have we come up with any policy on who should get them, which I think should be done in any case. Joe P.S. Was this in response to a posting somewhere? I just got John's message, but didn't see the message that it replied to.

PDheader:1989-11-18 11:54:00-08:00 b671fb47ebceee0511c9df5113222522 ∂18-Nov-89 1154 LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU Re: scope of bboard distribution Received: from shelby.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 18 Nov 89 11:54:06 PST Received: from Sail.Stanford.EDU by shelby.Stanford.EDU (5.61+/inc-1.0) id AA19883; Sat, 18 Nov 89 11:50:54 -0800 Message-Id: <WsZLO@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> Date: 18 Nov 89 1153 PST From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> Subject: Re: scope of bboard distribution To: su-bb@SHELBY.STANFORD.EDU Cc: pallas@NEON.STANFORD.EDU, jackk@SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU

I argued in favor of outside dissemination of su newsgroups at an earlier time but no longer feel that way. There were a few interesting contributions coming from outside (along with some crap) and there were a number of people out there who had left Stanford recently who wanted to keep in touch. I believe that there is an optimum size for any given newsgroup and that participation within Stanford has grown to the point where some of the su newsgroups are becoming unwieldy. It therefore makes sense on these grounds to restrict distribution as a matter of policy. If such a policy is adopted, I recommend that it be implemented uniformly -- no exceptions for personal friends here and there.

PDheader:1989-11-18 15:00:00-08:00 2d4dfb93af57eac5d165c37e14355f68 ∂18-Nov-89 1500 weening@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU su newsgroups Received: from shelby.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 18 Nov 89 15:00:26 PST Received: from Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU by shelby.Stanford.EDU (5.61+/inc-1.0) id AA29177; Sat, 18 Nov 89 14:57:13 -0800 Received: by Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (5.61/inc-1.0) id AA17073; Sat, 18 Nov 89 15:01:05 -0800 Date: Sat, 18 Nov 89 15:01:05 -0800 From: weening@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (Joe Weening) Message-Id: <8911182301.AA17073@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU> To: su-bb@shelby.Stanford.EDU Subject: su newsgroups

The following message points out the extent of our distribution problem: Path: neon!shelby!eos!ames!amdahl!pyramid!leadsv!laic!bucko!stiles >From: stiles@bucko.laic.uucp (Randy Stiles) Newsgroups: su.etc Subject: Re: Strongest economy in E. Europe (was Re: Berlin@Deutschland) Message-ID: <747@laic.UUCP> There's nothing particularly wrong with the message, but it took me quite by surprise that all of the sites to the right of "ames" in the Path line pass along our news.

PDheader:1989-11-18 15:24:00-08:00 b33bda7e172b6f25136de6f17bc8a85d ∂18-Nov-89 1524 weening@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU Distribution of su newsgroups Received: from shelby.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 18 Nov 89 15:24:50 PST Received: from Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU by shelby.Stanford.EDU (5.61+/inc-1.0) id AA29654; Sat, 18 Nov 89 15:21:39 -0800 Received: by Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (5.61/inc-1.0) id AA17125; Sat, 18 Nov 89 15:25:29 -0800 Date: Sat, 18 Nov 89 15:25:29 -0800 From: weening@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (Joe Weening) Message-Id: <8911182325.AA17125@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU> To: su-bb@shelby.Stanford.EDU Subject: Distribution of su newsgroups

I'd like to propose the following: 1. We come up with a policy on who outside Stanford may get su news- groups. Part of this policy will be that no one may redistribute them; we will feed them to anyone who we decide can get the groups. This way we won't lose control as we now seem to be doing. 2. We send messages to the administrators of all systems currently receiving su newsgroups from Stanford (including hosts other than Shelby), announcing the policy. 3. They have to send back a reply agreeing to stop any current redistributions they may have. If they don't reply within some time period, we cut them off. 4. This policy applies to hosts within Stanford as well as outside, since otherwise it would be unenforceable. The Stanford hosts that spool USENET articles will need to take some effort to prevent unauth- orized access to su articles. In particular, most of them are currently open to NNTP transfers from any remote host, so they will need to modify their nntp_access files. (I'm pretty sure some hosts outside Stanford are getting the su newsgroups this way.) Before implementing any of this, though, I would like to bring it up for public discussion on su.news.

PDheader:1989-11-21 11:51:00-08:00 c0bf8ff5c0033d4f30d55b1c1e19cdec ∂21-Nov-89 1151 pallas@Neon.Stanford.EDU Where has all the netnews gone? Received: from shelby.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 21 Nov 89 11:51:36 PST Received: from Neon.Stanford.EDU by shelby.Stanford.EDU (5.61+/inc-1.0) id AA18805; Tue, 21 Nov 89 11:48:15 -0800 Received: by Neon.Stanford.EDU (5.61/25-eef) id AA13492; Tue, 21 Nov 89 11:50:52 -0800 Date: Tue, 21 Nov 89 11:50:52 -0800 From: Joe Pallas <pallas@Neon.Stanford.EDU> Message-Id: <8911211950.AA13492@Neon.Stanford.EDU> To: su-bb@shelby.stanford.edu Cc: jackk@shasta.stanford.edu Subject: Where has all the netnews gone?

I decided to try tracking down the distribution of su groups using the sendsys control message. I've gathered the following subset of off-campus organizations receiving su groups: 3com AMD Amdahl Apple Claris DEC (decwrl gets everything, some others get only etc, market, jobs, events) Hunter Systems Intelligenetics Lucid MIPS Metaphor Microunity Motorola Olivetti Portal (public-access) Pyramid (only etc, jobs, market, events) SRI Spies on the Wire Sun (only etc, market, jobs, events) Tolerant Software UUnet (East coast Usenet hub) World/Software Tool & Die (public-access, Boston) Xanadu Xytec Plus a couple of oddballs: Centec Advanced Technologies (Jackson, MS, only computers, jobs, nethax) CTI, Inc (Arlington, VA, only admin) This is a subset because reports come back only from hosts that can manage to mail back to me. As a further exercise, I decided to look into how far csd.bboard goes, since that sometimes carries discussions that might reasonably be considered confidential to the CS department. It reaches UUnet and both of the public-access systems, as well as DEC, Apple, Lucid, Xytec, and Microunity. DEC and Apple politely decline to pass it on, in general. I'm inclined to agree that it's time to rethink the distribution policy. There are currently only five links off-campus. Polya feeds Lucid (a leaf), Lindy feeds Xytec (which did not respond), and Shelby feeds SRI, DECWRL and Apple. SRI feeds an internal machine which did not respond. Apple feeds nearly all of the local companies mentioned. DECWRL feeds Pyramid and Sun and, indirectly, UUnet, which feeds the oddballs and public-access sites. What all that should mean in terms of decision making is beyond me. Fortunately, I don't have to make any of the decisions. joe

PDheader:1989-11-21 13:32:00-08:00 5656c66558cb373c81f46ec85d98a9f7 ∂21-Nov-89 1332 weening@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU Re: Where has all the netnews gone? Received: from shelby.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 21 Nov 89 13:31:57 PST Received: from Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU by shelby.Stanford.EDU (5.61+/inc-1.0) id AA21099; Tue, 21 Nov 89 13:28:34 -0800 Received: from LOCALHOST by Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (5.61/inc-1.0) id AA27264; Tue, 21 Nov 89 13:32:33 -0800 Message-Id: <8911212132.AA27264@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU> To: Joe Pallas <pallas@Neon.Stanford.EDU> Cc: su-bb@shelby.stanford.edu, jackk@shasta.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Where has all the netnews gone? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 21 Nov 89 11:50:52 -0800.

<8911211950.AA13492@Neon.Stanford.EDU> Date: Tue, 21 Nov 89 13:32:31 PST From: Joe Weening <weening@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU> Thanks for your work in tracking down the su distribution. I think we have general agreement (among the su-bb list members) that some restrictions are needed; and Dan Kolkowitz and I are preparing a message to su.news to start a discussion of what the policy should be. >From the sys files that you collected, did you find the path by which the csd groups reach uunet and some of the other sites (aside from decwrl, which I know gets it, but you say doesn't pass it on)? If no one is explicitly passing it, then I fear that it is being retrieved using the "NEWNEWS" command in NNTP, by which a client can ask a server for articles in any group, except those where access is denied. I think we will have to set up NNTP access on all hosts that get csd and su newsgroups to prevent this from happening. Joe

PDheader:1989-11-21 14:04:00-08:00 ff78d637962aec3cefb6b8088df32ec5 ∂21-Nov-89 1404 pallas@Neon.Stanford.EDU Where has all the netnews gone? Received: from shelby.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 21 Nov 89 14:04:05 PST Received: from Neon.Stanford.EDU by shelby.Stanford.EDU (5.61+/inc-1.0) id AA21992; Tue, 21 Nov 89 14:00:43 -0800 Received: by Neon.Stanford.EDU (5.61/25-eef) id AA21698; Tue, 21 Nov 89 14:03:10 -0800 Date: Tue, 21 Nov 89 14:03:10 -0800 From: Joe Pallas <pallas@Neon.Stanford.EDU> Message-Id: <8911212203.AA21698@Neon.Stanford.EDU> To: weening@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU Cc: su-bb@shelby.stanford.edu, jackk@shasta.stanford.edu In-Reply-To: Joe Weening's message of Tue, 21 Nov 89 13:32:31 PST <8911212132.AA27264@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU> Subject: Where has all the netnews gone?

From the sys files that you collected, did you find the path by which the csd groups reach uunet and some of the other sites (aside from decwrl, which I know gets it, but you say doesn't pass it on)? Sorry I gave the wrong impression. DECWRL provides a complete feed of both su and csd groups to Fernwood, which in turn feeds UUnet. Fernwood is, I believe, the only link to UUnet. The su feed (but not csd) is redundantly supplied to Fernwood via Hercules (SRI) via Apple. joe

PDheader:1989-11-21 17:55:00-08:00 d97de807ed7367938d3ddf2a0e1dbdfc ∂21-Nov-89 1755 weening@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU Re: rn bugs Received: from Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 21 Nov 89 17:55:18 PST Received: from LOCALHOST by Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (5.61/inc-1.0) id AA28425; Tue, 21 Nov 89 17:56:38 -0800 Message-Id: <8911220156.AA28425@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU> To: rdz@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU Cc: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> Subject: Re: rn bugs Date: Tue, 21 Nov 89 17:56:37 PST From: Joe Weening <weening@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU>

PDheader:1990-01-09 01:10:00-08:00 60d2437337ef3542372011ab961b0c07 ∂09-Jan-90 0110 Mailer At war with peace To: su-etc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>

Date: 21 Nov 89 1624 PST From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> The U.S. defense establishment is apparently running scared from the outbreak of peace that is now underway. With the assistance of George Bush, they appear to be trying to convince us that there are other reasons to continue heavy expenditures for their support. Given the alarming outbreaks of freedom and democracy in Eastern Europe, it has been necessary to find new bogy-men on whom to focus. Manuel Noriega's formerly CIA-supported regime had been carefully set up for this role in recent years and has now come a cropper as a result of the unwarranted U.S. invasion of Panama. This venture had the beneficial side effect of mitigating Bush's wimpish image, but that small country won't be able to sustain requirements for large U.S. defense spending very long. Interpreting the "war on drugs" quite literally, the Defense Department now wants a piece of that action, beginning with the proposed interdiction of drug shipments from Colombia by U.S. Navy vessels stationed off their coast. If the defense establishement succeeds in getting further involved in that "war," they will certainly be involved in a growth industry. Indeed, it will continue to grow at an enormous rate until most of the country comes under the control of criminals, at which point we will likely decriminalize drugs out of self defense, thus ending the Second Prohibition. There is another possible big project that the defense establishment could undertake that would substantially improve the state of the world: attack and overthrow the government of China. There is at least as much justification for doing that as for going after Noriega, though the risk is a lot larger. On the other hand, that would mess up the nice diplomatic relations that have been put together with China, with Richard Nixon's help. Better to stick with attacks on lesser world powers such as Grenada and Panama. Cuba will be good for another shot, but when we run out of easy targets I'm afraid that the defense budgets are going to have to go down, taking a number of crooked and inefficient companies with it. For what its worth, there is an old bug in rn that seems to show up only when reading Clarinet and a new one that has appeared the last couple of days. The old one appears in the top line where it says "(n more)," meaning that there are more messages to be read in this group. As you may have noticed, n is often negative. The new bug appears when I respond to the prompt "read it now? [ynq]." When I hit <space>, it now often skips that group instead of reading it and the bypassed newsgroup does not reappear in the loopback at the end. Curious. Ramin, is this the same problem that you showed me? Maybe it's worth looking into. I still think canceled messages are the most likely explanation. Les Earnest

PDheader:1990-02-21 16:22:00-08:00 ee7817af7573018c5184de125a15ad7b ∂21-Feb-90 1622 jln@portia.stanford.edu Re: students (Was Re: New Parking Policy) Received: from Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 21 Feb 90 16:21:40 PST Received: from Portia.Stanford.EDU by Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (5.61/inc-1.0) id AA20954; Wed, 21 Feb 90 16:21:20 -0800 Received: by portia.stanford.edu (5.59/25-eef) id AA29175; Wed, 21 Feb 90 16:22:43 PDT Date: Wed, 21 Feb 90 16:22:43 PDT From: Jared Nedzel <jln@portia.stanford.edu> Message-Id: <9002220022.AA29175@portia.stanford.edu> To: les@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU Subject: Re: students (Was Re: New Parking Policy) Newsgroups: su.etc In-Reply-To: <1990Feb21.233957.6969@Neon.Stanford.EDU> References: <RAJE.90Feb20093203@dolores.Stanford.EDU> <9367@portia.Stanford.EDU> <1990Feb21.021017.1756@Neon.Stanford.EDU> <1990Feb21.231457.5452@Neon.Stanford.EDU> Organization: Stanford University Cc:

In article <1990Feb21.233957.6969@Neon.Stanford.EDU> you write: }As for all the poor babies who believe that having a parking place }next to their dorm is a birthright, I have two suggestions: } (1) get a bicycle; } (2) get a life. I can't say that I agree with you here. First, while a bicycle is certainly useful, it is not so good in the rain, it is dangerous at night, and it's kind of hard to carry your groceries home on it. In addition, there are folks like me who can't use them (bad knee). As for the closeness of the parking place to the dorm, while that may not be so important for you or I, unfortunately our campus is not terribly safe at night for women. And parking garages only exacerbate this problem. Having parking spaces close to dorms increases the safety for women. }Les Earnest Phone: 415 941-3984 -- Jared L. Nedzel --------------------------------------------------------------------- e-mail: nedzel@cive.stanford.edu jln@portia.stanford.edu

PDheader:1990-02-22 15:28:00-08:00 d29d6f7f4f44da4d07c042687dc55ecd ∂22-Feb-90 1528 LES re: students (Was Re: New Parking Policy) To: jln@PORTIA.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Wed, 21 Feb 90 16:22:43 PDT.]

> . . . First, while a bicycle is certainly useful, it is not so good in > the rain, it is dangerous at night, and it's kind of hard to carry your > groceries home on it. While you do get wet in the rain, the bike works just fine. I disagree with your view of night riding -- I have ridden thousands of miles at night without serious incident. The frequency with dangerous situations arise is directly proportional to traffic density, which tends to be lower at night. A bicycle with a basket or panniers can carry a substantial load of groceries, but few dorm dwellers need to buy a lot of food. > In addition, there are folks like me who can't use them (bad knee). On the few occasions when I have had a bad knee, I found it easier to ride a bike than to walk, though I imagine that it depends on the nature of the problem. > As for the closeness of the parking place to the dorm, while that may > not be so important for you or I, unfortunately our campus is not > terribly safe at night for women. And parking garages only exacerbate > this problem. Having parking spaces close to dorms increases the safety > for women. Assuming (contrary to my belief) that all students need cars, it seems to me that placing the parking lot a short bicycle trip away is nearly as good as having it next to the dorm if lighting conditions are the same. -Les

PDheader:1990-02-23 09:09:00-08:00 28f4ce87cc6d85f7c7ca11c8c2b4ae5b ∂23-Feb-90 0909 @jessica.Stanford.EDU:nedzel@cive.Stanford.EDU Re: students (Was Re: New Parking Policy) Received: from jessica.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 23 Feb 90 09:09:27 PST Received: from CivE.Stanford.EDU by jessica.Stanford.EDU (5.59/25-eef) id AA05597; Fri, 23 Feb 90 09:10:55 PDT Received: by cive.STANFORD.EDU (5.57/Ultrix3.0) id AA24205; Fri, 23 Feb 90 09:11:15 PST Message-Id: <9002231711.AA24205@cive.STANFORD.EDU> To: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> Subject: Re: students (Was Re: New Parking Policy) In-Reply-To: Your message of 22 Feb 90 15:28:00 -0800.

<17nsVH@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 90 09:11:08 PST From: nedzel@cive.Stanford.EDU Return-Path: <@portia.stanford.edu:LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> Received: from Sail.Stanford.EDU by portia.stanford.edu (5.59/25-eef) id AA27843; Thu, 22 Feb 90 15:32:33 PDT Message-Id: <17nsVH@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> Date: 22 Feb 90 1528 PST From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> Subject: re: students (Was Re: New Parking Policy) To: jln@PORTIA.STANFORD.EDU >[In reply to message sent Wed, 21 Feb 90 16:22:43 PDT.] > >> . . . First, while a bicycle is certainly useful, it is not so good in >> the rain, it is dangerous at night, and it's kind of hard to carry your >> groceries home on it. > >While you do get wet in the rain, the bike works just fine. Yes you get wet. And cold. >I disagree >with your view of night riding -- I have ridden thousands of miles at >night without serious incident. The frequency with dangerous situations >arise is directly proportional to traffic density, which tends to be lower >at night. Well, we disagree here. I've ridden at night also, and found that I have more difficulty seeing potholes, and am more likely to be blinded by car lights. In addition, I think it is harder for cars to see you at night. > A bicycle with a basket or panniers can carry a substantial load >of groceries, but few dorm dwellers need to buy a lot of food. I'd guess that quite a few of the folks in Rains cook for themselves. But, for the majority, you are undoubtedly correct. >> In addition, there are folks like me who can't use them (bad knee). > >On the few occasions when I have had a bad knee, I found it easier to ride >a bike than to walk, though I imagine that it depends on the nature of the >problem. As you say, it depends on the nature of the problem. I can walk just find, but can no longer use my bike. >> As for the closeness of the parking place to the dorm, while that may >> not be so important for you or I, unfortunately our campus is not >> terribly safe at night for women. And parking garages only exacerbate >> this problem. Having parking spaces close to dorms increases the safety >> for women. > >Assuming (contrary to my belief) that all students need cars, it seems to >me that placing the parking lot a short bicycle trip away is nearly as >good as having it next to the dorm if lighting conditions are the same. Well, I never said that all students need cars. But there are those who do. As for a well-lit parking lot far from the door being nearly as safe as a well-lit parking lot close to the dorm, I must disagree. In the evening, that well-lit parking lot is likely to be deserted. If someone is in trouble, they can scream. And if the lot is close to the dorm, it's likely that they'll get help fast. If the lot is out by the golf course...... > -Les Jared

PDheader:1990-03-04 23:25:00-08:00 438ceb0f7ff29de2bbf72fdc278defc0 ∂04-Mar-90 2325 fetrow@milton.u.washington.edu Re: Irony in Advertising Received: from Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 4 Mar 90 23:24:59 PST Received: from milton.u.washington.edu by Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (5.61/inc-1.0) id AA07944; Sun, 4 Mar 90 23:24:26 -0800 Received: by milton.u.washington.edu (5.61/UW-NDC Revision: 2.1 ) id AA18791; Sun, 4 Mar 90 23:25:38 -0800 Date: Sun, 4 Mar 90 23:25:38 -0800 From: David Fetrow <fetrow@milton.u.washington.edu> Message-Id: <9003050725.AA18791@milton.u.washington.edu> To: les@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU Subject: Re: Irony in Advertising Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers In-Reply-To: <1990Mar2.005324.22840@Neon.Stanford.EDU> References: <22476@unix.cis.pitt.edu> <52552@bbn.COM> <1193@swbatl.UUCP> <34451@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> <Eu_tp!@cs.psu.edu> <10363@ttidca.TTI.COM> Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Cc:

In article <1990Mar2.005324.22840@Neon.Stanford.EDU> you write: > >Many of us Konservatives also believe that a byte is a word segment of >no particular length and that memory size should be specified in bits, >though IBM succeeded in confusing the masses about that long ago. > DEC 10 or DEC 20? -- -dave fetrow- fetrow@bones.biostat.washington.edu dfetrow@uwalocke (bitnet) {uunet}!uw-beaver!uw-entropy!fetrow "CP/M: Remember when fast, small, useful and clean were good?"

PDheader:1990-03-05 01:00:00-08:00 f6663805d6d5e84089d16f86b97d5ef0 ∂05-Mar-90 0100 LES re: Irony in Advertising To: fetrow@MILTON.U.WASHINGTON.EDU [In reply to message sent Sun, 4 Mar 90 23:25:38 -0800.]

> DEC 10 or DEC 20? Actually a PDP-6, later linked with a KA10 as a dual processor system running the WAITS operating system. We used that system to design a new computer that DEC adopted and called the KL10. They gave us one as a payoff, so we retired the PDP-6 and gave it to the Computer Museum in Boston. -Les Earnest

PDheader:1990-03-05 01:06:00-08:00 2c4313a4cb91120ae22b2d56877b713a ∂05-Mar-90 0106 fetrow@bones.biostat.washington.edu re: Irony in Advertising Received: from bones.biostat.washington.edu by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 5 Mar 90 01:06:40 PST Received: by bones.biostat.washington.edu (5.52.1/UW-NDC Revision: 2.1 ) id AA00248; Mon, 5 Mar 90 01:07:08 PST Date: Mon, 5 Mar 90 01:07:08 PST From: David Fetrow <fetrow@bones.biostat.washington.edu> Message-Id: <9003050907.AA00248@bones.biostat.washington.edu> To: LES@sail.stanford.edu Subject: re: Irony in Advertising

You guys did the KL-10? Shoot, I use one of those.... -dave fetrow- "My boss tells me assembly language isn't viable. Except when he needs speed...."

PDheader:1990-03-05 01:15:00-08:00 1d55f32765baee3b18866ff078f0f20d ∂05-Mar-90 0115 LES re: Irony in Advertising To: fetrow@BONES.BIOSTAT.WASHINGTON.EDU [In reply to message sent Mon, 5 Mar 90 01:07:08 PST.]

Actually, it was a prototype that we called Super-Foonly and only one of those was built. As part of the Super Foonly project, we also developed a computer aided design system called SUDS (Stanford University Drawing System) that DEC also swiped and used as their primary design system for over a decade.

PDheader:1990-03-09 16:13:00-08:00 3b4d0e9c593dfe1b2c426f16077280de ∂09-Mar-90 1613 singh@sierra.Stanford.EDU SIRF/INS - Delegations to visit local Representatives/Senators Received: from sierra.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 9 Mar 90 16:13:49 PST Received: by sierra.Stanford.EDU (4.1/4.7); Fri, 9 Mar 90 16:07:23 PST Date: Fri, 9 Mar 90 16:07:23 PST From: singh@sierra.Stanford.EDU (Harinder J. Singh) To: ;@INS-interest-group Subject: SIRF/INS - Delegations to visit local Representatives/Senators Message-Id: <CMM.0.88.637027642.singh@>

I'm in the process of getting a time/date to visit Congressman Tom Campbell (R-Calif) from our region around Stanford and would like to invite as many of you as can join in to do so. I've found Mr. Campbell to be very receptive in the past, and quick to grasp issues/solutions. He seems to have understood the basic problem of the sweeping adverse presumptions that exist in immigration laws as they apply to legal aliens. Now it is a question of proposing a couple of easy steps he could initiate to at least get the issues on the floor of the House and on the Congressional record. The objective is very simple - we'll go in as a diversely constituted group of people sharing one concern, namely that the un-necessary indignities and hassles inflicted on legal aliens be formally recognised in Congress as a first step towards eventually finding legislative and administrative solutions for them. It is likely to take 8-10 weeks to set this up and we may need to meet once on campus before going to our meeting with Mr. Campbell. Each person's presence in a delegation could make a significant difference so if you'd like, in principle, to be included, then please let me know by email and I'll keep you posted [sorry about the clumsy sentence - ain't my first language as you can guess.] Folks on this list who are not in the SF Bay Area may wish to consider similar initiatives with their own local Congress-critters :-) Best wishes, Inder

PDheader:1990-03-12 15:28:00-08:00 8944a197dc18039913d666276210a874 ∂12-Mar-90 1528 Mailer Re: Drivers licenses & drug testing To: su-etc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU From: Les Earnest <LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>

Eric Berg says: > I just received a "renewal by mail" form for my drivers license, which > expires this year. The form contains the following language: > > I agree to submit to a chemical test of my blood, breath, or urine > for the purpose of determining the alcohol or drug content of > my blood when testing is requested by a peace officer acting in > accordance with Section 23157 of the Vehicle Code. > > > Does anyone know whether this is new? My recollection of the way the law > worked in the past was that, if you were requested to submit to a blood/breath > /urine test, you could refuse -- but refusal meant automatic revocation of > your drivers license. The language on the form suggest that this is no > longer the case. Section 23157 of the Vehicle Code was amended on July 1, 1989 and the new version is about half a page longer, but from a quick scan it appears that the penalty for refusing to submit to a test is unchanged: six months license suspension is automatic and there are other penalties if you are convicted of other things. Please note that I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice. -Les Earnest The following text is introduced to circumvent brain-damaged Usenet software resident on Shelby.Stanford.edu that permits large quotations only if one's posting is at least as long. This, of course encourages people to keep writing even if they have nothing more to say. Four score and seven years ago, our forefathers brought forth upon this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. We are now engaged in a great Civil War . . . (that should be about enough).

PDheader:1990-04-25 16:18:00-07:00 c62259c662150d873497bae30d82ba26 ∂25-Apr-90 1618 cdp!kpeters@labrea.stanford.edu RISKS contribution Received: from labrea.stanford.edu by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 25 Apr 90 16:17:57 PDT Received: by labrea.stanford.edu; Wed, 25 Apr 90 15:19:43 PST Date: Wed, 25 Apr 90 15:19:43 PST From: cdp!kpeters@labrea.stanford.edu Message-Id: <9004252319.AA26013@labrea.stanford.edu> To: labrea!les@sail.stanford.edu Subject: RISKS contribution Cc: kpeters@labrea.stanford.edu

Dear Dr. Earnest: Charles Dunlop and Rob Kling are preparing an edited collection on the social implications of computing, to be published by Academic Press under the tentative title COMPUTERIZATION AND CONTROVERSY: Value Conflicts and Social Choices. The collection will contain over 50 articles on such topics as technological utopianism, privacy, computerization and schooling, economic dimensions, and gender issues, to name a few. The book will contain substantial introductions to each of sections (each section contains 5-8 papers) which will frame the important debates and discuss additional readings. As part of the section on "Relationships in Electronic Communities", the editors would like to include a few selections from the RISKS bboard which discuss issues surrounding the "rec.humor.funny" bboard censorship case at Stanford. We would like to request permission to reproduce your contribution to Volume 8, Issue 31 (February 27, 1989) of RISKS. We will also be requesting permission to reproduce the original article from the San Jose Mercury Times posted in Volume 8, Issue 30 of the RISKS ("Computer Users Worry That Stanford Sets Precedent"), and the RISKS responses to the article from John McCarthy and Jerry Hollombe. May we please have non-exclusive world rights to the material, in all languages? We would be pleased to give you a copy of the volume upon publication. I will be sending you a copy of this letter via snail mail by the end of this week. In the meantime, I would appreciate it if you would acknowledge receipt of this e-mail message and indicate your willingness to give us permission to reproduce your contribution. Thank you. Sincerely, Sari Kalin Associate Editor Academic Press 124 Mt. Auburn Street Cambridge, MA 02138 617/876-3901 cdp!kpeters@labrea.stanford.edu as of May 5, our address will be 955 Massachusetts Avenue, Cambridge, MA 02139.

PDheader:1990-04-26 14:47:00-07:00 bca67b5ed06b990e3df3e658b58a6462 ∂26-Apr-90 1447 LES re: RISKS contribution To: cdp!kpeters@LABREA.STANFORD.EDU [In reply to message sent Wed, 25 Apr 90 15:19:43 PST.]

Yes, you have my permission to use my RISKS posting on the attempted censorsship of rec.humor.funny, though I barely remember what I said. -Les Earnest

PDheader:1990-05-02 14:38:00-07:00 f37ed7b1d2e834d42cd48a39a38aa33a ∂02-May-90 1438 MPS@SAIL.Stanford.EDU Parking Received: from Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 2 May 90 14:38:22 PDT Received: from Sail.Stanford.EDU by Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (5.61/inc-1.0) id AA07480; Wed, 2 May 90 14:39:12 -0700 Message-Id: <10RxzI@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> Date: 02 May 90 1428 PDT From: Pat Simmons <MPS@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> Subject: Parking To: les@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU

Les, Some of us are not as motcho as you. I can see some of our older (me included) employees stuffing and unstuffing a folding bike into our trunks 5 times a week just for the pleasure of parking out by El Camino. Realistically, there probably are some employees who have minor physical ailments, and not wishing to talk about them, who would find it distressing to have to park so far from the building they work in. I am not sure I can understand why the A sticker apparently will be going up 25% this coming year. Especially since, it appears that the powers to be do not want you parking on the inside of Campus Drive. Pat

PDheader:1990-05-02 18:25:00-07:00 4b0877987d0eeb315aa75c92346d686e ∂02-May-90 1825 JMC@SAIL.Stanford.EDU re: Parking Received: from Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 2 May 90 18:24:58 PDT Received: from Sail.Stanford.EDU by Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (5.61/inc-1.0) id AA08995; Wed, 2 May 90 18:25:43 -0700 Message-Id: <dR$qP@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> Date: 02 May 90 1824 PDT From: John McCarthy <JMC@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> Subject: re: Parking To: les@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU, su-etc@SHELBY.STANFORD.EDU

[In reply to message from les@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU sent 2 May 90 21:51:16 GMT.] The cost estimate of $30K per car for a parking structure strikes me as exaggerated, e.g. some creative bookkeeper loaded every possible cost on it. Do you have a breakdown? Nevertheless, if paid for on a straight line basis in 20 years, this would be $1500 per permit. Taking Stanford's current ratio that the actual number of parkers on a given day is 2/3 the number of permits, this reduces to $1000 per permit. If this is the real cost, they should eventually charge it, and expect eventually to pay employees $1000 more per year than they otherwise would. Of course, doing it this way rather than making parking free and paying less, gives about 30 percent to the Feds and California as well as generating quite substantial bookkeeping costs. However, the current dominant ideology would not like this, because it regards imposing inconvenience on people for so-called environmental reasons as a virtue. Finally, I'm willing to bet money that when the oil crunch finally comes, we will still manage to have cars as good as those we have now, powered by electric batteries or liquid hydrogen. The environmental ideologists will try to prevent this, but unless they succeed all over the world, progress will win again. I can't imagine the U.S. public agreeing to be austere when even one other country actually solves the problem.

PDheader:1990-05-03 13:00:00-07:00 4ba57ba2bfabbc21e9a37e9603b51204 ∂03-May-90 1300 LES re: Parking To: JMC@SAIL.Stanford.EDU, su-etc@SHELBY.STANFORD.EDU John McCarthy says:

> The cost estimate of $30K per car for a parking structure strikes me > as exaggerated, e.g. some creative bookkeeper loaded every possible > cost on it. Do you have a breakdown? I recall seeing such a figure for some recent parking structure but don't remember where it was. I called the Stanford Planning Office this morning to find out what they have been paying and was told it is $12-13K, though that dosn't include the value of the land. After discussing amortization costs, JMC says: > If this is the real cost, they should eventually charge it, and expect > eventually to pay employees $1000 more per year than they otherwise would. > > Of course, doing it this way rather than making parking free and > paying less, gives about 30 percent to the Feds and California as > well as generating quite substantial bookkeeping costs. John overlooks the fact that subsidizing car drivers by providing free parking would put the incentives in the wrong place -- bicycle commuters, users of public transportation, and car poolers would be treated the same as those who drive individual smog generators and use up the limited parking areas. > However, the current dominant ideology would not like this, because > it regards imposing inconvenience on people for so-called environmental > reasons as a virtue. Damn straight. > Finally, I'm willing to bet money that when the oil crunch finally > comes, we will still manage to have cars as good as those we have > now, powered by electric batteries or liquid hydrogen. I share John's hope and belief that alternative technologies will appear that can sustain some kind of reasonably efficient transportation network, but I am afraid that the economics will turn out to be not so good as what we have now, requiring substantial adjustments in the way we do things. > The environmental ideologists will try to prevent this, but unless they > succeed all over the world, progress will win again. I can't imagine the > U.S. public agreeing to be austere when even one other country actually > solves the problem. Tsk, tsk. There are those pesky "environmental ideologists" again, on the wrong side of every issue. I have noticed that they always seem to be made of straw, an appropriately non-contaminating substance. -Les Earnest

PDheader:1990-05-03 13:07:00-07:00 774a61a9bcc48aa8056cdf8bfe8ef5c3 ∂03-May-90 1307 LES re: Parking To: MPS@SAIL.Stanford.EDU

[In reply to message sent 02 May 90 1428 PDT.] Pat, You say: > Realistically, there probably are some employees who have minor physical > ailments, and not wishing to talk about them, who would find it > distressing to have to park so far from the building they work in. I think that special consideration should be given to people who are partially disabled, but that is not a reason to coddle the able-bodied majority. > I am not sure I can understand why the A sticker apparently will > be going up 25% this coming year. Especially since, it appears > that the powers to be do not want you parking on the inside of > Campus Drive. Actually, the A stickers are still underpriced -- see the su.etc discussion. -Les

PDheader:1990-06-05 08:34:00-07:00 985e8882444c8c33b724ff44ea0c7323 ∂05-Jun-90 0834 gumby@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU PDP6's (was) Remember how great editors used to be? (TECO still is?) Received: from Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 5 Jun 90 08:34:29 PDT Received: by Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (5.61/inc-1.0) id AA08561; Tue, 5 Jun 90 08:34:32 -0700 Date: Tue, 5 Jun 90 08:34:32 -0700 From: gumby@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU (David Vinayak Wallace) Message-Id: <9006051534.AA08561@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU> To: clements@bbn.com (Bob Clements) Cc: LES@sail.Stanford.EDU In-Reply-To: clements@bbn.com's message of 1 Jun 90 18:24:00 GMT Subject: PDP6's (was) Remember how great editors used to be? (TECO still is?)

Date: 1 Jun 90 18:24:00 GMT From: clements@bbn.com (Bob Clements) 16 Stanford SAIL (Custom CONS instruction in hardware. I also installed this one.) CONS hardware? What does it look like? Unless you screwup the index register field and effective addressing I don't see how you could point to car, cdr, and the cell itself in one location? curiously, g

PDheader:1990-06-05 09:32:00-07:00 068f70bcf7ea0fc9c1ea4ea19c5b5f22 ∂05-Jun-90 0932 clements@BBN.COM Re: PDP6's (was) Remember how great editors used to be? (TECO still is?) Received: from FRED.BBN.COM by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 5 Jun 90 09:32:04 PDT To: David Vinayak Wallace <gumby@gang-of-four.stanford.edu> cc: Bob Clements <clements@BBN.COM>, LES@sail.stanford.edu, clements@BBN.COM Subject: Re: PDP6's (was) Remember how great editors used to be? (TECO still is?) In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 05 Jun 90 08:34:32 -0700.

<9006051534.AA08561@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU> Date: Tue, 05 Jun 90 12:24:00 -0400 From: clements@BBN.COM .. CONS hardware? What does it look like? Unless you screwup the index .. register field and effective addressing I don't see how you could .. point to car, cdr, and the cell itself in one location? Hi, David, Well, this is too far back for me to remember the details at all. It was something along the lines of: Grab a free-list cell, which I think wasn't really a free list but a free area (count and addr in a pointer register), count the free pointer, skip/non-skip/trap (I forget) if the pointer counted out, put the two half-words (CAR and CDR) together and store them in the word pointed to by the free-pointer. The two half words must have come from a register and the EA, I guess, but I don't remember. I DO remember that when they finally got their production lisp system running they decided that the CONS instruction didn't make it, and they didn't use it after all. (It had been spec'ed by Stanford.) If you want the exact details, I think you'll have to find a local old-timer. .. curiously, .. g /Rcc

PDheader:1990-06-05 11:03:00-07:00 4d233d81b926189855f7749783f943b0 ∂05-Jun-90 1103 LES re: PDP6's (was) Remember how great editors used to be? (TECO still is?) To: gumby@GANG-OF-FOUR.STANFORD.EDU,

clements@BBN.COM CC: LES@SAIL.Stanford.EDU [In reply to message from gumby@Gang-of-Four.Stanford.EDU sent Tue, 5 Jun 90 08:34:32 -0700.] > CONS hardware? What does it look like? Unless you screwup the index > register field and effective addressing I don't see how you could > point to car, cdr, and the cell itself in one location? I too forget exactly what CONS did because we never used it in practice -- it would have made our code incompaible with all the other PDP-6's in the world. Alan Kotok designed the CONS instruction at the request of John McCarthy, who liked the idea of a machine customized for LISP. DEC charged us something like $25k extra for this feature with the proviso that they didn't have to document it beyond logic drawings. Another interesting bad idea. -Les Earnest

PDheader:1990-06-11 14:07:00-07:00 7c9b054424ea044a1445275ad3149aca ∂11-Jun-90 1407 hearn%hilbert@rand.org What's Up These Days? Received: from rand.org ([192.5.14.33]) by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 11 Jun 90 14:07:45 PDT Received: from hilbert.rand.org by rand.org; Mon, 11 Jun 90 13:37:04 -0700 Received: by hilbert.rand.org; Mon, 11 Jun 90 13:37:46 pdt From: Tony Hearn <hearn%hilbert@rand.org> Message-Id: <9006112037.AA02860@hilbert.rand.org> To: les@sail.stanford.edu Subject: What's Up These Days? Date: Mon, 11 Jun 90 13:37:44 PDT

Haven't talked to you in ages. How are things going? I thought you might have planned a wake for Sail. However, it doesn't seem to want to die. Regards, Tony

PDheader:1990-06-11 16:02:00-07:00 1e5c514c96d17bcdf44bd4b787e46adc ∂11-Jun-90 1602 LES re: What's Up These Days? To: hearn%hilbert@RAND.ORG [In reply to message sent Mon, 11 Jun 90 13:37:44 PDT.]

SAIL is being kept alive until all the dump tapes are converted to 6250 density so that they can be preserved for posterity. After that, it dies. No wake planned yet, but there should be one. I just had a go at local politics, running for City Council in Los Altos Hills. I lost by 61 votes out of 5,615, but succeeded in blowing away the bad guys -- two candidates supported by big-bucks developers. Two other candidates took the "high road" and snuck in ahead of me. They said nothing bad about the bad guys, while I wielded a hatchet and cut off their . . . votes. I was please that the sum of the votes received by the two developers' candidates was substantially less than I got. Joan and I plan to visit Alaska again this summer, probably East Africa early next year and some combination of Bali, Australia, New Zealand, and Tahiti after that. If you don't come see us soon, we'll have to come down there. Cheers, -Les (who also has an account on Go4.Stanford.edu)

PDheader:1990-06-13 13:48:00-07:00 98880dc2643693d3febfdfe9cf2d02cc ∂13-Jun-90 1348 kchen@apple.com Elections Received: from apple.com by SAIL.Stanford.EDU with TCP; 13 Jun 90 13:48:25 PDT Received: by apple.com (5.61/25-eef) id AA17450; Wed, 13 Jun 90 13:49:33 -0700

for les@sail.stanford.EDU Date: Wed, 13 Jun 90 13:49:33 -0700 From: Kok Chen <kchen@apple.com> Message-Id: <9006132049.AA17450@apple.com> To: les@sail.stanford.EDU Subject: Elections Hi Les, Was talking to Bob Wallace just now and he mentioned that you actually stood for elections in LAHills ! Well, did you make it? Are you a crooked politician yet? :-) He also saw QMS hit over 21 this morning. His conjecture is that they are a take-over target. Otherwise, how's everything else? - kc

PDheader:1990-06-13 14:24:00-07:00 2e5af8a333c16f20856600fc68ef3706 ∂13-Jun-90 1424 LES re: Elections To: kchen@APPLE.COM [In reply to message sent Wed, 13 Jun 90 13:49:33 -0700.]

Actually, I lost by 61 votes out of 5,615 but the important thing is that the two bad guys lost big despite the big $ backing of developers. In fact, the sum of their votes was substantially less than mine even though they outspent me by a factor of 8. The other two candidates took the "high road" of saying how nice they were but without addressing any of the real issues. Meanwhile, I went after the bad guys with a hatchet. Neither of the major newspapers endorsed me but I still damn near won anyway. The takeover theory on QMS sounds plausible, given that the stock has been shooting up wildly of late. I had a sell order for 2k shares at 20 that should have tripped, but they haven't called me yet. Cheers, -Les (who also has an account on Go4.Stanford.edu, given that SAIL will die sometime this summer)